Ito -> Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 9:46:49)
Want to see a man in a Jackie Chan movie do a pata de buleria while being a martial artist? Well here it is: http://youtu.be/VP8sVrjoiCY
Ricardo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 17:06:58)
Samu Hung
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 17:17:15)
I really have to say something here: you know, my passion before discovering flamenco was Martial Arts. I was actually an instructor after doing it for 10 years as of 2007. but when I discovered flamenco, I completely changed! the fire is gone and new fire is born, and so the topic title by itself grabbed my attention for this reason.
its funny from the flamenco point of view, but from the martial arts point of view, its NOT funny, its silly, ugly and stupid.
Jackie Chan is all ****, not a real martial artist, he is actually and originally a stunt man who worked his way up to make the funny FAKE BS so called "martial arts" which is what people enjoy BUT it ruins the image of real martial arts. its exactly like how FAKEMENCO's exist who ruin the image of Flamenco and work their way up and get more attention and publicity. (you know what i mean)
the real martial artists is Bruce Lee, the way Martial artists view Bruce, is exactly like the way we flamencos view Paco de Lucia. [:)]
so I cant help it,because whenever the name "Jackie Chan" is mentioned, I have to speak!
Elie -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 17:23:12)
quote:
Samu Hung
love that actor, his show "martial law" was awesome
Ricardo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 17:58:59)
quote:
the real martial artists is Bruce Lee, the way Martial artists view Bruce, is exactly like the way we flamencos view Paco de Lucia.
REally? I did martial arts too as a kid. I was very into the discipline and stuff. I always liked kung fu movies and viewed it as art in the sense of the beauty of the fight choreography. Bruces movies were all choreography and fake too, sped up to boot, just as fake as any other. Jackie seems to me, in that sense, a great artist as well.
What I learned in Martial Arts was more about discipline and the art that was made with kata and such, basically the same thing. Choreographed fight moves, with elegance timing balance etc. But the ACTUAL fighting we learned was self defense, very dangerous and ugly to think about actually using. We all prayed we never had to really fight someone because we knew what it meant. Making points in tournaments is a sport, not art.
Just my opinion man don't try to kick my ass!!!
Ricardo
jaggedsphere -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 18:10:49)
PDL = Brude Lee??? Love it. :)
Along this topic if anyone here has ever played the Metal Gear series of games(which transcends the usual video game) there is a character named Vamp.
who is apparently inspired by Joaquín Cortés
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 21:01:05)
Jackie Chan fake BS martial arts??? So I guess when Bruce Lee and a million others guys from Shaw brothers movies beat up 50 guys single handed it was real to you? The reality is every single movie and tv show that has featured martial arts fighting in it is BS. Bruce Lee did not fight in real life like he did in his movies either and never claimed it was the same thing.
KMMI77 -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 21:06:12)
XXX -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 16 2011 21:18:36)
Bruce Bam Lee
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 2:53:55)
quote:
Bruces movies were all choreography and fake too, sped up to boot, just as fake as any other. Jackie seems to me, in that sense, a great artist as well.
movies are movies, are always BS. so keep the movies aside, at least Bruce did real techniques in the movies, and did not make up some stupid stuff that Jackie does. actually he was SUPER fast, that film makers had to slow it down so that people can see his hands in the movies (at least thats what I heard and Im not surprised) my whole point is 1-Bruce Lee is a real martial artist who even created his own style in kung fu known as Jeet Kune Do (The Way of the Intercepting Fist). 2-Jackie is just a stunt man, not a real martial artists
quote:
What I learned in Martial Arts was more about discipline and the art that was made with kata and such, basically the same thing. Choreographed fight moves, with elegance timing balance etc. But the ACTUAL fighting we learned was self defense, very dangerous and ugly to think about actually using. We all prayed we never had to really fight someone because we knew what it meant. Making points in tournaments is a sport, not art.
I 100% agree, thats what Taekwondo has become : an olympics sport, not art.
Ideally,in A REAL fight situation you want to finish it in 1 STRIKE (which is very hard), but BRUCE LEE could do it, he is famous for many things that he could do.
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 3:00:01)
While there are bound to be legends surrounding Bruce Lee, given the mysterious circumstances of his passing and his unarguable talent and skill in directing energy, the facts are still undeniable that he was able to reach a level of control that surpasses many today.
vigrond -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 4:05:40)
As a former practitioner of Jeet Kune Do, I just wanted to chime in here ^^.
The most impressive thing to me about Bruce Lee was his philosophy and how it affected his learning. In his process of creating JKD he created principles based off of facts in fighting aka physics (ex: longest weapon to nearest target, interception (stop hits), and economy).
While he never 'completed' JKD as it is a progressive art, it is plain to see how well his philosophy not only acted as a catalyst to his learning but also as an irreplaceable tool of creation.
There are many examples of this in life but it is all too common to see people blindly trying to learn things without thinking first. (Relates to guitar?)
Also I respect Jackie Chan as a martial artist, a stuntman, but most of all a philanthropist.
Ricardo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 4:31:56)
quote:
actually he was SUPER fast, that film makers had to slow it down so that people can see his hands in the movies (at least thats what I heard and Im not surprised)
I don't mean the dramatic slow motion shots...I mean the general action. All sped up. Jackie did some amazing stunts in addition to some really nice fight choreography.
In one movie Bruce breaks Chuck norris' arm. Of course it is so fake. But asked about their TRUE relationship Chuck was forced to bring everybody down to earth and say "look, we sparred and had mutual respect. But I was a PROFESSIONAL kickboxer..."....basically saying, there was no chance Bruce could fight a true boxing champ. Of course, the macho ego thing comes in here and everyone wants to say "prove it!!!!" but Chuck was getting his "arm twisted" into admitting the reality of the thing, and I think it was hard for him to bring it up, but he was very matter of fact and honest.
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 5:23:54)
Jackie took martial arts movies in a new direction, away from the tired, over used revenge plot and with his amazing stunts. Chan was in his prime in the 80's and most of his movies released in the past ten years in North America were actually re releases of ten year old movies. Before becoming the biggest action movie star in the world he was a stuntman but before being a stuntman he wasn't just some asian guy working at manchu wok. Jackie has had tonnes of training, you can't just wake up one day and move like he does on a whim. After Bruce Lee died people tried to turn JKD into a style which it's not, it is nothing more then Bruce's philosophy on unarmed combat which is why he was hesitant to even give it a name. A drunk Scotsman headbutting someone in the face in a bar is closer to Bruce's philosophy then the flashy spinning kicks he showed in his movies. Chuck Norris was never a real fighter, he was never a full contact fighter nor kickboxer just a tournament point fighting champion and although they allowed a little more contact then todays point fighters its still for pussy's. My cousin met Jackie Chan in Toronto 5-7yrs ago through his work and was amazed how incredibly nice this man is.
Ricardo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 6:25:56)
quote:
Chuck Norris was never a real fighter, he was never a full contact fighter nor kickboxer just a tournament point fighting champion and although they allowed a little more contact then todays point fighters its still for pussy's.
[:D][:D] Really??? Man was he exaggerating. I realize his bio admits he was a Karate Tournament Champ, like Ralph Macchio? Lame. Bruce could have killed the guy for real I guess.
KMMI77 -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 7:12:14)
It would be funny to watch some flamenco fighting.
Instead of the traditional thai boxing music you could have a group playing bulerias in the backgroud.
Imagine someone starts a remate and a guy getting sent down with a, ba ba, bah bah ba ba por bulerias,[:D][:D][:D]
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 12:40:19)
quote:
It would be funny to watch some flamenco fighting.
the closest thing I can think of is bullfighting +karate:
Mas Oyama, was a karate master who founded Kyokushinkai Karate, considered the first and most influential style of full contact karate , he was also known for fighting bulls bare-handed. In his lifetime, he battled 52 bulls, three of which were purportedly killed instantly with one strike, earning him the nickname of "Godhand".
theres a video of him on youtube fighting the bulls with his bare hands.
Mas Oyama is one of the strongest and one of the best martial artists the world has ever known.
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 14:45:05)
Ya here he is battling a bull That's all a bunch of bull about Mas Oyama, highly exaggerated and romanticized stories that grew over the years. There is video of him wrestling a very domesticated Ox to the ground by its horns, nothing any decent cowboy couldn't do. Kyokushinkai training was more hardcore then other styles of Karate, running in the snow with only Gi bottoms, standing under freezing cold water falls and actual bare knuckle full contact fighting tournaments. The one punch one kill thing is just snake oil and a great marketing tool nothing more, big with the Shotokan guys. The reverse punch is for people that like getting punched in the face, karate guys say it has more power because it comes from the hips and a boxer only from his shoulders, that's because they have no real clue about boxing.
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 15:46:36)
you know, martial arts is an art to be respected and taken seriously. I do not find it appropriate when people start making fun of it in any way or making silly jokes such as saying " ooaaahee" (whatever stupid sounds they make) and whatever **** they make with their hands. you get the idea....
anyways heres Mas Oyama
quote:
one punch one kill thing
its real! it has been scientifically measured and proven to be fatal. you have to watch "Human Weapon"- Discovery Channel
Ricardo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 18:13:28)
My friend did kyokushin in Bolivia, won some tournaments I think. Since I have known him he has been in a few very short fights. He never started any, (he is a very passive artistic gipsy type guy, never uptight or wound up) but always finished em. I only saw one and it was pretty much just one punch, done.
Ricardo
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 17 2011 23:46:34)
That so called bull is what you would see a 50lb Ethiopian herding with a piece of grass, gentle as a lamb, I'm not impressed by that display of animal cruelty at all and if any died it was probably from fright. When most people think bulls they picture rodeo bulls and bullfights, throw him in with one of those he would have just enough time to crap his pants before being killed. One punch, one kill is used as a marketing tool to promote an art, make it sound deadly and bad ass, it's snake oil because you have better odds winning a lottery and its really a very poor fighting strategy. Kids have been killed getting hit in the chest by baseballs stopping their hearts but how many of us have received a powerful blow to the chest from something and lived to talk about it probably 99.999% of us at some point. Hell I could kill someone giving them CPR but that doesn't make it a brilliant fighting strategy.
Andy Hug, may he RIP was the best Karate fighter
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 0:50:32)
This is how its done
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 1:29:07)
quote:
One punch, one kill is used as a marketing tool to promote an art, make it sound deadly and bad ass, it's snake oil because you have better odds winning a lottery and its really a very poor fighting strategy. Kids have been killed getting hit in the chest by baseballs stopping their hearts but how many of us have received a powerful blow to the chest from something and lived to talk about it probably 99.999% of us at some point
do you believe in science and scientific data?
some might use it as a marketing tool. HOWEVER, there are VERY (EXTREMELY) few people in this world who have the knowledge, ability, training and skills to actually DO IT!! and this explains why 99.99% of the people were able to live after being punched in the chest. you know what im saying? here is the proof for DEATH PUNCH from national geographic channel :" FIGHT SCIENCE"
also Sean, as I mentioned before, I am trying to have a serious discussion with no silly videos or jokes or that kind of stuff...
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 3:08:35)
A lot of things are physically and scientifically possible but basing your mantra on the improbable is not a good idea. Here is Chuck talking about Bruce and hinting he would kick his butt because he was a professional fighter
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 3:14:06)
Really Chuck? Ugh
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 4:08:24)
..... dude, you really dont get the point.... the point of martial arts is not who kicks whose butts and all that children's games.....it is AN ART!! a healthy, beautiful, peaceful, practical art that can be used as self-defense (not who kicks whose ass) ONLY where theres no other possible choice out of the situation. the best martial artists is the one who can talk his way out of it with no physical contact or end it before an actual fight starts.
to be honest, I was having a good discussion here with Ricardo, not until you showed up....
KMMI77 -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 4:09:14)
Lol[:D] That Chuck Norris fight was pretty tame compared to what we see today. But good on him anyway.
Ito -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 5:55:56)
Heh heh. I just posted this as a bit of fun ... if you watch it, he really does do some moves you might see from some male dancers, e.g. Juan de Juan or the Farruquito clan and many others. They like to do plenty of heel slaps and acrobatic moves. And I've seen some old-time reviewers in Spain deride that sort of dancing with comments like "Flamenco is an art, but not a martial art, harrumph, bah, humbug, etc." Glad it got some replies and stirred up some debate about art, etc :)
Sean -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 5:58:13)
Honestly I don't care who can kick who's ass, I just thought it was a little hypocritical of Chuck to act like he was more of a real fighter then Bruce because in his words he was a professional fighter, considering it was just trophies and money for a game of tag. That video of the bull was hardly a healthy, beautiful, peaceful, bit of artistry and maybe a bad example of the point you were trying to make or thought I missed. A smart man wins all his fights by never getting into any, no argument here.
kudo -> RE: Martial arts flamenco! (Nov. 18 2011 20:59:54)
quote:
That video of the bull was hardly a healthy, beautiful, peaceful, bit of artistry and maybe a bad example of the point you were trying to make or thought I missed. A smart man wins all his fights by never getting into any, no argument here.
that was a demonstration video of mas oyama showing off basically, and yes the whole bull fighting concept is bad and ugly. (even for spaniards).
thats what im saying, the best martial arists or (the smart man as you say) wins by not getting into any OR wins by defending oneself when he is attacked all of a sudden (if he is being robbed or something)
