rombsix -> Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 14:56:59)
And by "right" hand I mean the picking hand, just in case there are some lefties among y'all.
So here's the deal: all the great guitar technicians (Grisha, Javier Conde, etc.) play arpeggios and tremolo with their right hand, while their pinky / little finger is naturally flexed / curled inwards, following the motion of the ring finger, and moving side by side to it.
I was taught incorrectly that I should ALWAYS have my pinky sticking out, regardless of the technique (if one is doing pulgar work, or i-m picado, it is NOT a problem). Therefore, now, whatever I play, even if arpeggios or tremolo (for example, pimami arps, or piami tremolo), I unconsciously stick my pinky out. However, this is NOT natural. The pinky and ring finger are held together by a tendinous interdigitation that is unique to those two fingers. That is why it's so hard to move them 100% independently, and why it is more NATURAL to have the pinky mimic the movement of the ring finger (where the pinky does NOT touch the strings, of course) when playing arps or tremolo, just like you see Grisha or Javier Conde (or all the great technicians) do.
I've realized this now, and I want to UN-LEARN this bad habit. I am trying to do three things to achieve this:
1- I am using a rubber band (not a very tight one so as NOT to severely compromise nerve / blood supply) to keep the fingers together while playing arps and tremolo.
2- I am consciously trying to force the two fingers together when playing those techniques.
3- I am also trying to change the way I get my ring finger to move. Instead of just moving it per se, independent of the little finger (which I can now do quite well because of years of this bad habit - my fingers have become independent albeit people normally have trouble making them move independently), I am making my ring finger move as a byproduct of flexing the little finger. That is, instead of thinking of moving the ring finger, I am instead moving the pinky finger (or both together) and having it "naturally" drag the ring finger with it - of course, I am making sure the pinky does NOT hit the strings, but the ring finger does.
Another thing I thought would be worth a try is this: I am starting to USE the pinky finger to do arpeggios and tremolo (stuff like pimasami arps or psami tremolo) hoping that the flexion movements will make it naturally start moving like normal again, mimicking the ring finger.
I'm not sure about the sanity of this last suggestion (of using the pinky for arps, tremolos, and dare I say, picado?!).
Here's a video to show what I am talking about:
0:00 to 0:30 - I show you what my pinky does during arps and tremolo NORMALLY, without changing anything
0:30 to 1:42 - I show you what the rubber band does
1:43 to 1:46 - I show you that once I take the rubber band off, and I DON'T make an effort to keep the pinky inside, it just goes back out
1:46 to end of clip - I show you how things go if I try to consciously force the two fingers together (you notice my arps become uneven, and so does the tremolo)
Please advise as to what you think of my methods, and if you have a better method to help me unlearn this. Or, whether you think this is all just a waste of time, and continuing as I am already will NOT be holding my technique back.
Cheers!
ToddK -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 18:06:36)
I would ask you how long you've been trying to change this.
An issue like that is going to take a long time to reverse. So the number one thing you have to practice is patience.
You're not gonna be able to fix this in a couple of months.
Also keep in mind, that there are plenty of players out there, who are great technicians, that have the pinky sticking out. So i dont think anybody can truly say 100 percent, that the pinky sticking out is all thats preventing you from reaching speeds you want to reach. I would agree that it is part of it though, and i would say if you can re-train it, then definately do it. Just know that its not gonna be easy, and you're gonna have to really concentrate, and be patient. I would highly suggest bringing your practice tempos way down, and simplifying your exercises.
When i dropped my pick, and started practicing rest stroke/picado, i had the same issue. My pinky wanted to stick straight out. I did not use anything, like a rubberband though. I just worked on relaxing that finger, and it eventually started to follow anular finger after about six months. It wasnt easy.
Good luck! TK
orsonw -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 18:07:00)
All I can share is my own experience, right or wrong. My little finger used to do the same thing as yours- stick out. I used your methods 1. and 3. and using the little finger for arppegios. Now it does not stick out, it moves, relaxed and in harmony with the others.
I won't share the details of my case as we are all different but it was important for me to really identify what was going on and what was holding me back technically. Put simply, the little finger extension for me had a lot to do with too much tension in my right hand generally and inefficient movement patterns.
I have needed to address my whole hand not just the little finger. For me it is very important not to just force the little finger to change but to eliminate it's reason for extending in the first place. I have been working the last six months to change this and results are showing. It meant my playing was all over the place for a while but it is improving and I know I will be able to go further forward technically than before.
Not for the first time I've had to go backwards in order to keep going forwards. It can be frustrating to get worse for a while, it takes some committment! Good luck!
This post has made me late for rehearsal! That's my other suggestion; I try not to let technique make me forget about the music!
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 18:28:32)
Todd:
I've been trying to change this for the past few days, only.
I am NOT saying that solving this issue is going to make me play like Grisha. As you concurred, it will help though. However, the main reason for it is that my pinky gets numb and cold every time I play, and this is because it sticks out. The tension in it is compromising blood or nerve supply to the finger, and hence those symptoms. This is the main reason why I want to get rid of it. Plus, I hate the way it looks when I'm doing arpeggios / tremolo. Looks cool to me when doing pulgar or picado (i-m), but I'd give up the coolness because it will rid me of the numbness. [:D]
I will SURELY be practicing much slower and doing simpler stuff. I was only going fast here to show what it looks like in full intensity.
Thanks for the advice!
Orson:
Thanks for the input. Sorry I made you run late. So are you still using the pinky for arpeggios / tremolo now? If so, how is that going?
Cheers!
orsonw -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 20:51:09)
quote:
So are you still using the pinky for arpeggios / tremolo now?
My little finger stopped extending after a few months and this has become integrated so I don't do those exercises or the rubber band anymore.
The reason I made these changes wasn't aesthetic it was to gain speed, power and control. I don't think the little finger extending neccessarily means anything for everyone but for me it was definately symptomatic of poor technique, which was holding me back.
At the moment I am mainly focused on relaxing the fingers after they play a stroke. This has only been the past few weeks so I need patience, it's not integrated. At home or in certain moments I play much better than before and get a taste of real speed, control and ease but I'll have to wait several months before that becomes permanent! For the moment when I perform I just use arppegios minimally, lots of pulgar and rasgeo. I'm working a lot with a singer at the moment and actually no-one cares what the guitar is doing as long as it provides compás, tone and feeling and I can do that with simple technique.
As far as relaxation I found this helpful, even though it's a treatment for focal dystonia. (Well, one could classify the involuntary extending of the little finger as dystonic)
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 21:29:00)
Thank you for the input, Orson.
Regarding the video: I am no expert on focal dystonia, but perhaps my medical background made me really belittle what this guy was saying. Playing guitar involves moving the fingers. The muscles involved in moving the fingers are located in the forearm. He is talking about the latissimus dorsi and the teres minor which act on the shoulder joint or humerus at best. I just wasn't able to imagine playing guitar from your shoulder joint. But what do I know...
Thanks again!
orsonw -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 22:04:50)
Yes, I agree his medical description is not good.
I have my own understanding of what is happening biomechanically but I don't think that understanding is neccesary in order to benefit from his suggestions.
ToddK -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 22:41:30)
quote:
muscles involved in moving the fingers are located in the forearm. He is talking about the latissimus dorsi and the teres minor which act on the shoulder joint or humerus at best. I just wasn't able to imagine playing guitar from your shoulder joint. But what do I know...
If i chopped your shoulders off, you'd have a pretty hard time playing guitar wouldnt you?
[:)]
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 23:19:47)
quote:
If i chopped your shoulders off, you'd have a pretty hard time playing guitar wouldnt you?
Not really.
ToddK -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 9 2011 23:25:04)
I didnt see any pinky sticking out in that crawling hand.
You should find out if it gives lessons.
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 10 2011 6:10:11)
quote:
I didnt see any pinky sticking out in that crawling hand.
You should find out if it gives lessons.
By Jove, you're right! I will let my people contact the crawling hand's people. I need to find out how fast it can play picado. [8D]
aloysius -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 10 2011 14:49:12)
In the classical guitar world a few players have made a point of using the RH little finger in a number of ways, among them Stepan Rak. Charles Postlewate has written a number of books specifically about right hand little finger: www.charlespostlewate.com/books.html I haven't heard any of this guy's playing to back up his ideas, though.
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 10 2011 15:27:52)
Thanks aloysius! You can actually hear Postlewate's stuff on his website - at least, snippits.
"From 1985 to 1995, Postlewate followed a six-hour per day practice routine to develop the strength and dexterity of the little finger and to integrate it with the other fingers."
I guess it's going to be harder than I thought. [:D]
Haithamflamenco -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 11 2011 20:07:49)
i want to make usefull from my all fingers,
[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
so I am trying to eat Hummos with my little finger [:D][:D][:D]
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 11 2011 20:15:49)
quote:
i want to make usefull from my all fingers,
so I am trying to eat Hummos with my little finger
[:D] Haitham, I believe I have finally found someone more crazy than I am, here on the foro. [:D]
Elie -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 8:34:59)
You're a genius Ramzi thank you for bringing this up !
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 9:05:08)
quote:
You're a genius Ramzi thank you for bringing this up !
Thanks! But wait! [:D] What exactly am I a genius for? Discovering that my pinky sticks out, and that unlearning that bad habit can help relax the whole hand?
By the way, as an update - I am getting better at controlling the pinky now. More so in tremolo than in arpeggios, but still, an improvement overall as compared to before. I've discovered a new method I am using.
I thought, since my pinky was gotten used to always being extended, and now the neutral / relaxed position of my right hand pinky is more outstretched than my left hand pinky - I started FLEXING my right hand pinky consciously when I play. I figured, over some time, it will learn to go back to being in the "zero" position when "relaxed" rather than overly extended (I figured, currently it is used to being overextended, so if I teach it to be overly flexed, they will cancel out). It seems to be working!
I now am practicing VERY slow arpeggios and tremolo with the pinky flexed. I do this when I first pick up the guitar, for about 5 or 10 minutes. Then, my pinky starts to feel and stay more over in the flexed position. Then, I start playing slow arps and tremolo making sure the pinky and ring flex in together, naturally. It works MUCH better after those initial 5 minutes of playing with forced pinky flexion.
I am also still practicing arps and tremolo with the pinky (not much picado though, but maybe later).
Cheers!
Elie -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 9:17:06)
quote:
unlearning that bad habit can help relax the whole hand?
Exactly !! and also using a rubber band to keep the fingers together
my pinky creates much tension when doing picado and the rubber trick ( well I used tape [8D] ) seems to be working .. I felt much more better .. I will follow you mate [:)]
Elie -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 9:20:18)
by the way I just downloaded this "Hand Workout (DVD)" yesterday and it seems to be fun with all these fancy hand dancing
anyone tried it before ?
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Guest -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 9:22:39)
in Ralph Towners GSP transcriptions and his book 'performance and improvisation techniques for classical and acoustic guitar' he uses the right hand pinky to 'pluck out' 5note chord voicings....kind of get a sense of it in this vid... just a footnote to the discourse...
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 9:29:28)
quote:
my pinky creates much tension when doing picado and the rubber trick ( well I used tape ) seems to be working .. I felt much more better .. I will follow you mate
Hmmm... Doesn't the tape take off the hair when you remove it though? Or have you decided to tape your ring and pinky fingers together for life? [8D]
Frankly, I don't mind it a lot during picado. My pinky likes to stick out during picado and pulgar / alzapua too, and I'm sure it'll work better if I can make it NOT stick out during those techniques too. However, it bothers me the most during arps and tremolo because those latter techniques actually use the RING finger, and the BIGGEST tension arises when using the ring finger while the pinky sticks out.
Actually, I felt my ring finger became STRONGER now that I am making my pinky finger move along with it. I guess the pinky's sticking out was holding back the ring from moving with full force / flexibility as it should normally have without being "restrained" by the extended pinky.
And one last thing: I'm NOT using the rubber band anymore. I'm just practicing SUPER SUPER SUPER slow at speeds where I CAN control exactly what my fingers are doing. And I'm in not much of a hurry: 5 or 10 minutes of practice daily is all I can do for now, but still, that seems to be helping, and I can really feel the results, and it's made my playing better.
I just can't emphasize how important playing slowly is, and being patient to build up to required speeds. That's the way to go, but y'all already knew that! [8D]
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 9:31:45)
quote:
"Hand Workout (DVD)"
Well, my internet doesn't allow me to download the actual DVD (which is illegal! You should be ashamed of yourself, Elie! [8D] --> [:(]), but I viewed the clips on YouTube (someone uploaded them there). I tried them out at first, but got bored. But I hope to get back to them, as I felt they also helped.
Kbeer ya Elie! [;)]
Thanks Alval!
Elie -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 23 2011 12:15:56)
quote:
Hmmm... Doesn't the tape take off the hair when you remove it though? Or have you decided to tape your ring and pinky fingers together for life?
yea it might take off some hair I guess lol .. but I don't mind if it will make my picado faster [;)] haha maybe if I used transparent tape .. audience won't notice [8D] and then I could keep it for long time
quote:
my internet doesn't allow me to download the actual DVD (which is illegal! You should be ashamed of yourself, Elie! --> )
[:D] 2oom t3a l3ndi [8D] it will take you couple hours by car .. I will put them on a DVD for you [;)]
ente le Kbeer ya Ramzi [;)]
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 26 2011 20:56:31)
Here is Villa-Lobos' Etude 1 using this arpeggio:
ppimasamipp
I am just using the chords from his etude (as I've demonstrated using them for alzapua, rasgueado, etc. earlier), not playing the actual order of notes.
"s" refers to the pinky finger.
I am obviously screwing up, but I really enjoy doing these exercises involving the pinky. It's helping me with the issue of "pinky sticking out" in arps etc.
Comments?
Cheers!
rodrigovalt -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 27 2011 2:30:14)
Good one Ramzi, that will definitely help your pinky finger
In case you want to practice it, David Cerreduela has a really good arpeggio excercise using the same estudio.
First (min 1:30) he uses the fingers like this pamipm... then on min 4:30 he explains the same thing but your right hand should do pimamipim, and if you do it a little bit faster it will sound insane!
The only issue here is that it does not involves the pinky finger[:D]
Elie -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 27 2011 7:23:37)
quote:
The only issue here is that it does not involves the pinky finger
loool [8D]
hey ramzi, thats a very cool exercise I have been doing it since two weeks and it is very good in my opinion, it utilizes the whole right hand and that's so great specially that bastard pinky
btwI learnt the etude from your previous video and applied this excercise [:)] so thank you [:D]
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 27 2011 8:13:49)
Thanks for that, Rodrigo! I've seen this video before, and I'll start fooling around with those arps. It's always good to get the fingers moving.
Aweomse, Elie!
orsonw -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 27 2011 10:57:31)
Ramzi, I used the same exercise a few months ago and it helped me. I never normally use the little finger on the right hand so I think it helped my brain to re-connect to it rather than it just being a stray finger on the end of my hand.
Learning to relax my hand of un-needed muscle contraction is a slow process but for me it is really paying off. I am gaining more power, control and reliability. I performed last night and was impressed with how well my hand behaved with added adrenaline; the new patterns are beginning to get integrated. I am looking forward to seeing the improvements in a year's time but I am also enjoying the process now.
rombsix -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jun. 27 2011 10:58:54)
Right on, Orson! Your words summarize my thoughts and feelings precisely. Viva el dedo chico! [:D]
RoJay1 -> RE: Right hand Pinky / Little finger (Jul. 8 2011 15:41:30)
Here's a suggestion taught to me by a classical guitar professor several years ago when I had the same problem. Practice arpegios while holding a pair of coins between your index and middle fingers and middle and ring fingers. The coins should be held between the knuckle and first finger joints. You want to use quarters or fifty cent pieces. The newer dollar coins would probably work well for this also - the point is that you want something fairly heavy so that you feel the weight of the coins. Be sure to lean forward a bit when practicing so that the coins don't hit the face of the guitar when you drop them. Practice simple arpegio exercises very slowly at first, while gradually building speed.
The act of holding the coins will force you to compress your fingers together while playing, and should help a lot. When I did this years ago, it took care of the problem within a few weeks, and overall improved my arpeggio technique. Now that I think about it, I may do this for the next few weeks. I've been working on arpeggios lately.
