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Guest -> [Deleted] (Sep. 11 2011 3:11:22)

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xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 7:31:20)

yes please, unless you want US to sing [:D]



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 7:37:02)

quote:

CANTE challenge anyone?


I am down...


i like the idea of buleria compases & brakes too...i think it needs to be more than 4....u dont have time to really do much in 4 compases...takes you that long to establish normal compas before you even go into any funky brakes imo....thinking about 12 compases etc...how interesting one can keep the rithm and feel and soniquete

but its a great idea.....how exciting can one make the bulerias without the use of any falsetas...i think it would be a great exercise for us..(practicing and having a few nice bulerias rithms/brakes etc...up our sleeves i think its way more useful and important than any falseta...) with a strong bulerias skeleton of great rithm and brakes ...u could play the simplest most boring falsetas and still sound exciting

the more i think about it the more i am thinking this idea was genius


should be judged on creativity, swing and soniquete

and u could probably allow the use of some single notes (5 max per brake) cause its nice to combine notes with chords for some brakes



Elie -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 7:47:36)

count me in [:D] I'll do my best [;)]



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 7:55:01)

which one Elie ?


i am down for either...



Elie -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 8:03:10)

yes actually that's what I meant Flo
it doesn't matter which one you choose ^-^ I will do my best for either
but the buleria idea you mentioned is interesting actually maybe in future we can expand it for other palos as well



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 8:09:17)

works great for me cause i need to think about some nice new stuff for a solo bulerias for something

and if i like your ideas better after....il just steal them [:D]



El Kiko -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 8:33:53)

Florian you make up your own rules about the bulerias rythmn challenge making it exiting not using any falsetas etc. then in the next sentence you brake your own rules by allowing the use of notes ,this would pretty much make it a falseta by then,, !! and anyway the way you are describing it to me it is sounding like your challenge is inventing your own rhythmic falseta for bulerias . which is OK as well

Also what level are you talking at ? cos I know you guys are good , but earlier post here were more about beginner type stuff, it's all good though ,
I'm just a bit confused , maybe the first thing should be to agree what the challenge wants to achieve and at what level ( or challenges)



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 10:48:00)

quote:

Florian you make up your own rules about the bulerias rythmn challenge making it exiting not using any falsetas etc. then in the next sentence you brake your own rules by allowing the use of notes ,this would pretty much make it a falseta by then,, !! and anyway the way you are describing it to me it is sounding like your challenge is inventing your own rhythmic falseta for bulerias . which is OK as well

Also what level are you talking at ? cos I know you guys are good , but earlier post here were more about beginner type stuff, it's all good though ,
I'm just a bit confused , maybe the first thing should be to agree what the challenge wants to achieve and at what level ( or challenges)


not really...i am talking the allowing the use of 4 or 5 max notes per brake...in a remate or cierre kind of way ( since the point of this is developing nice interesting brakes and rithms and cierres, i dont thing theres any point of restricting and tying our hands in developing good ideas we can take and use after this just for the sake of not using notes at all) ...not really melodic falsetas....just ends to compases or brakes using a max of 5 notes...if needed ...often you will find your using single notes at times in just playing bulerias rithm...sometimes a note is all that is needed to make the rithm better

and i haven't really thought about the level...perhaps it can be something that can be for intermediate - adavanced...or forget the level all together and open to anyone



Graham_B -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 11:17:13)

Can I suggest that this time, whatever the challenge agreed upon, it can be one that beginners, intermediates & advanced players can get involved in rather than separate challenges.



El Kiko -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 11:30:17)

quote:

it can be one that beginners, intermediates & advanced players can get involved in rather than separate challenges.


thats difficult as all levels have a chance to participate but the beginners wont have much chance to shine against the advanced will they?
I do like the idea of a challenge open to all though , even though that has always been the case , beginners can participate in an intermediate challenge just for the feedback .

Florian , your doing it again , saying ".i am talking the allowing the use of 4 or 5 max notes per brake"..........then ..." i dont thing theres any point of restricting and tying our hands in developing good ideas ""

i think the rules themselves are restrictive , as you know when composing what comes out , comes out , just have your challenge idea for the rhythm and brakes but what else gets thrown in is what creativity is all about , but thinking of a cierre or big remate all the time ,, as you said.

hmm, best to keep it simple and free ish so everyone understands what is required ,,



Graham_B -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 12:10:18)

quote:

thats difficult as all levels have a chance to participate but the beginners wont have much chance to shine against the advanced will they?


Same challenge, separate levels so ultimately 3 'winners'
Maybe too complex?



El Kiko -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 12:23:01)

maybe too complex , maybe .
the point of levels was to avoid this , maybe stick with levels so players are more evenly matched , however a beginner could enter into a higher level challenge , they're just not gonna win , but will gain feedback and a bit of experience .
first the "Top Men" have to decide what the challenge will be , but it seems to me like there maybe 2 challenges running side by side, a beginner and a intermediate/advanced challenge, this being the case the advanced players in one challenge could also be judges of the beginners challenge.



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 14:47:05)

quote:

Florian , your doing it again , saying ".i am talking the allowing the use of 4 or 5 max notes per brake"..........then ..." i dont thing theres any point of restricting and tying our hands in developing good ideas ""


lol well yea man out of context everything can sound conflicting

i dont know how to better explain it, i dont know what is confusing about it man...no falsetas....but rithm and brakes...however sometimes single notes are used in rithm and brakes...so we cant restrict singles notes all together...however ...we dont want falsetas...so how do we do this ?

if you say...keep it free...whatever u want is allowed...then some will focus on falsetas and some on rithm...and i dont trust it enough that some judges will not be distracted and swayed by falsetas...the whole point is to mentain interest without the use of falsetas



El Kiko -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 14:54:38)

yes , I do get the idea , i think , I'm not sure how to do it though.
it sounds a bit like you will end up with an intro and straight to the ending,
all rhythmic

So maybe by time ? like approximatly 1 min long , for example, or by a certain amount of rounds of 12 , ...
Im not really sure , you'll have to get the TOP MEN on it if it is to work at all[;)]



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 14:55:57)

quote:

yes , I do get the idea , i think , I'm not sure how to do it though.
it sounds a bit like you will end up with an intro and straight to the ending,
all rhythmic


that's exactly the point, that's the challenge...get creative...mentain interest and aire with just rithm & brakes for 12 compases or whatever we agree on...60% or 70% of a bulerias is about the use of rithm and creativity with compas anyway

noone says u need an intro...u can go straight into it...whatever it is...people will vote on swing, soniquete, aire, creativity etc...


this is just general idea, general plan...we can iron out the little details...as soon as we know theres an interest and how many wanna do it etc..


really all we need to agree on is the loop we use for everyone and exactly how many single notes per compas or brake we will allow each other

for example this is some single notes used in a bulerias rithm ...but not really considered a falseta... to say we cant use stuff like this in bulerias rithm or brakes will really diminish the rithm or brakes because they are used ...alot



quote:

Same challenge, separate levels so ultimately 3 'winners'


personally i think...does it really matter ? before we had prizes...fair enough...but now theres no prizes, only prize you have is what you create and invent, yours to keep and use......and also this is not so much a question of technique...an intermediate could possibly beat an advanced...its more a question of creativity

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Ricardo -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 15:30:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Graham_B

Can I suggest that this time, whatever the challenge agreed upon, it can be one that beginners, intermediates & advanced players can get involved in rather than separate challenges.

Happy to help out again if you need someone to administer[:)]


I agree advanced players SHOULD always come out on top. But what if you had a challenge for all levels, simply improvise compas for 60 seconds, but using ONLY the techniques demonstrated here (so no personal fancy remates and such):



The challenge is to see who can do something interesting with the basics.



Pablito -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 15:31:43)

Count me in



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 15:49:15)

quote:

The challenge is to see who can do something interesting with the basics.


sure that sounds good too



VietFlamenco -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 16:02:30)

I think i'll be joining in for my first challange. I'm drooling for a good buleria. Still haven't learnt any tango palo yet.



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 16:15:26)

quote:

I agree advanced players SHOULD always come out on top. But what if you had a challenge for all levels, simply improvise compas for 60 seconds, but using ONLY the techniques demonstrated here (so no personal fancy remates and such):


thing is u can arrange into personal from what hes doing using ONLY the same technique...so are you saying only playing the same chords and in exactly the same order and same style ? or...u can do whatever u like as long as you are using only this techniques ?...but then you would have to ignore the no personal "fancy remates" rule..cause anything thats not in the video would be a personal remate..

i think this leaves alot of room for interpretation...including mini falsetas which the guy does in the video...and its a technique he uses, since we haven't named a max number of notes allowed per compas one can just go ahead playing falsetas defeating our purpose of saying no falsetas ...so we might have to be more specific....

or we can just say ...copy this guy..exactly as he does it for 60 seconds and thats it



El Kiko -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 17:06:46)

I would say that this vid has given some right hand techniques that are to be used in the challenge , the left hand would be up to you , chords and stuff of course we agree in following the bulerias sequence , but that doesn't stop you from having a surprise chord or whatever..
Then I would say, yes this would work using only his right hand stuff in any order over your own creative left hand stuff,
I see how this would level out the field somewhat between different levels of players but I still see that the advanced will have a noticably better rasguerdo, hence advanced ...however it would be an interesting way to do the challenge , .
I would also say that players could use any bulerias loop they wanted for accompaniment as this could be a bit slower or faster for each person and the accent may vary from one to the other which would help to make all the entries different .
an approximate set number of times long, i suppose , there has to be a bit of freedom to allow for creativity.
Does this make sense?



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 17:23:17)

quote:

an approximate set number of times long, i suppose , there has to be a bit of freedom to allow for creativity.
Does this make sense?


yes it does but still leaves ALOT of room for interpretation ...removing whatever level playing field we though we had between intermediate /advanced



this is pretty much almost all the techniques one needs anyway...and if we say anything goes with the left hand ...as long as we follow the bulerias chord sequence .( allowing for surprise chords etc..) then pretty much...our rule is that we have no rules [:)]..i can play a falseta since in the video the guy was using thumb and index to play separate notes...and with our rules as i understand them atm...thats fine


am i making any sense ? theres a million things one can do with "only" those techniques...which is about 95% of the flamenco technique repertoir and free left hand

I dont really mind what we do...but we should make sure we are ALL clear on the rules so that we dont end up with confusion after



El Kiko -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 17:35:16)

quote:

theres a million things one can do with only those techniques and free left hand

I agree, a million things if your creative , maybe not so many for me personally , but the vid is called RIGHT HAND MOVEMENTS and as Ricardo says ..

""simply improvise compas for 60 seconds, but using ONLY the techniques demonstrated here ""
"The challenge is to see who can do something interesting with the basics. "



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 17:40:41)

quote:

"simply improvise compas for 60 seconds, but using ONLY the techniques demonstrated here


ok so i can do whatever i want with the left hand as long as i use only the right hand techniques demonstrated in the video ? am i understanding correctly ?

i dont know wtf we bothering with rules when our rule is that we have no rules [:D]...as i said right hand techniques demonstrated in the video makes 95% of our complete right hand repertoire ...and saying left can do anything means...100% of our left hand repertoire

so we can just do complete bulerias solos with falsetas and everything



El Kiko -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 17:49:44)

I suppose so , but I'm not making the rules , just throwing my bit in based on what I read here , but so far it seems to be

Right hand techniques as per video
Left hand as creative as you need to be to stun us all and win,
The palo is Bulerias ( no mention of 6's or 12's, buleria de Cadiz etc..)
time 60 seconds
a loop to play over if you want
EQ if you think it helps

marks given for Aire , technique , creativity...


How does that sound for a base? someone can amend this if they want (please do ) I'm just trying to have a structure here.



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 17:54:58)

[:D][:D]

i am gonna give up trying to understand it today cause its late...whatever you guys decide i am cool with...as long as its clear to everyone and is not so open for interpretation that we are all doing different things or someone reads something else into the rules and wonder why its going to be so hard to judge



Andy Culpepper -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 18:31:16)

12 compases of buleria of your choice, no "falsetas" longer than 1 compas.

So you can do single-compas "filler" type falsetas that really just push the groove forward, and everything else is rhythm.
Just strumming chords doesn't count as a falseta.

This could work for beginner, intermediate, or advanced. (but not all at the same time[:D])



Julian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 19:03:27)

That's a great idea!!
I'm in [:)]



Florian -> RE: The Next Challenge (Sep. 11 2011 20:14:49)

quote:

12 compases of buleria of your choice, no "falsetas" longer than 1 compas.

So you can do single-compas "filler" type falsetas that really just push the groove forward, and everything else is rhythm.
Just strumming chords doesn't count as a falseta.

This could work for beginner, intermediate, or advanced. (but not all at the same time )


i like it...perfect, simple



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