RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Full Version)

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GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 22:18:12)

quote:

Then again who knows, maybe it's the canary birds that impart the sonorous dulcet tones.

Canary birds select the best wood and carry them to the islands during their migratory flights.
[:D]



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 23:01:17)

quote:

Canary birds select the best wood and carry them to the islands during their migratory flights.



I finally get the Andalucia connection, it's a slight detour from the Euro/North African migratory flyway. The canaries pick up the wood at the bird preserve near Lebrija, then fly it to Las Islas...brilliant plan......



Adam -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 0:11:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

Canary birds select the best wood and carry them to the islands during their migratory flights.



I finally get the Andalucia connection, it's a slight detour from the Euro/North African migratory flyway. The canaries pick up the wood at the bird preserve near Lebrija, then fly it to Las Islas...brilliant plan......


An African canary or a European canary??



Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 15 2011 0:50:08)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 15 2011 1:04:43)

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estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 2:35:45)

quote:

An African canary or a European canary??


Ole'



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 3:01:27)

quote:

An African canary or a European canary??

Andalusian canaries who say "Ni!"
[:D]




I had a look at the PDL foro that Escribano mentioned. They've had a discussion about AG that mirrors ours ... perhaps with a bit more unflattering emotional content ... and notably less discussion about grammar, tuning machines and canaries. It was locked after 6 pages.

http://www.pacodelucia.org/foro/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=475



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 4:24:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

Who are you? The forum's dad?


No, I am. You have said your piece more than once. I believe we have heard you and some us still choose to disagree with you.

Move on from this or move out. If you do not, I will assume you are a shill working on Ruben's behalf and suspend your account.

Be very clear that it is the spamming and crass marketing techniques that are behind my position on this and not the quality or origins of a guitar.


What is "my piece" by the way? If you have actually read my posts as you claim you'll see that all I've done is question opinions on the guitar's quality that aren't based on actual experience. It's an issue of principle for me. I've haven't really made any comments on the marketing because I think some of the points being made are reasonable.

I've also defended myself against insinuations that I'm a liar.

If that's too much, then suspend away.



VietFlamenco -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 5:13:32)

Guys I really have to agree with Yojimbo here. He hasn't done anything wrong other than state his opinion on these guitars. We're really beating a dead horse on this issue.

After reading the entire thread, i really just want to gouge my eyes out. 14 pages and we can all agree on 2 facts:

1) Ruben's marketing strategy is bull crap and has turn most forum members against buying his guitars.

2) Proponents of Andalusian guitars want people people to try out the guitars before they are judged. As Nunez would say "A good guitar is a good guitar regardless of its marketing strategy." [:D]

I think you guys are arguing over two different issues. Lets agree to disagree without being disagreeable. [sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]



Pimientito -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 6:42:24)

quote:

Lets agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

I disagree[:D]



XXX -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 10:39:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

its just the americans that refer to it as "soccer"


We used to call it soccer too - from its proper name of "Association Football".


Get the irony? [8D]



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 12:22:44)

quote:

question opinions on the guitar's quality that aren't based on actual experience


I have seen several posts on this forum by guitarists who have personally tried these guitars and thought they were nothing special or else not good. This combined with the marketing and the price tags is a huge turn off to most people on this forum.

You will have to accept this and stop being so defensive. Your moral crusade for a fair appraisal of these guitars is very very late. That decision has already been made. When several members of the forum say they tried one and didn't dig it others trust that person's judgment. If you are suggesting there is still some doubt there and attempting to spread the try one yourself approach (which granted normally is the way to go) I can see how Ron thinks you are a shill.



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 12:28:51)

quote:

I think you guys are arguing over two different issues


It is in fact the same issue. Why would someone who makes a quality product resort to dubious marketing strategies to promote it?

"Anyone who tells a lie has not a pure heart, and cannot make a good soup." (Beethoven)



rogeliocan -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 12:55:11)

Well said Harry,
man we're back at this.

How about an evaluation of different facts of Andalusian Guitars.

- Brand history: None, new brand with no obvious backing in terms of constructors.
- Construction: Factory built, since it is a brand name and not a luthier's name
- Origin: unknown
- Price: varied, the top I've seen is $15,000
- Owner: a Canadian located in Toronto
- Marketing: unproven statements, poor comparison with guitars outside it's category, aggressive web based, tried to create perception of Spanish construction.

Did I forget anythning?

Other factory guitars on the market have positive answers to all above points with a price range from let's say $400 to $1500 (US)

What guitar will you buy? If the AG plays well, it better be cheap, because it has nothing else going for it.



Sean -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 14:08:18)

Due to the deceitfulness of their marketing I have serious doubts about their claim of these guitars having 25 year old german spruce tops. Why would they use such an expensive material on a factory built lattice braced guitar? My suspicion is they do not and with its tight even grain it is actually Engelmann spruce that is being used here. I would love it if one of us with a little knowledge could get our hands on one of these guitars and find out.



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 17:34:35)

quote:

We used to call it soccer too - from its proper name of "Association Football".



How does soccer get extracted from Association of Football?



Escribano -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 18:58:46)

quote:

How does soccer get extracted from Association of Football?


Association football = soccer. It's a bit like Andaluz only dropping the entire second word to boot (to boot, get it?). [8|]



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 19:36:04)

quote:

It's a bit like Andaluz only dropping the entire second word to boot (to boot, get it?).


Great, thanks for giving me the shoe in on the English style abbreviation.

Do you guys only drop words in the South of England?



Escribano -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 15 2011 20:33:39)

quote:

Do you guys only drop words in the South of England?


I .. we probably ..



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 0:52:25)

I agree that it's time to wrap up this thread.

But before we do, I should say that I bought an Andalusia guitar yesterday - of the Marcelo Barbero variety. No doubt you are wondering why I did after all the negativity from the forum members, but here are my reasons:

  • I want a different guitar to learn on other than my Conde;
  • Finding another guitar is a hassle, especially when one is a beginner. It's not like I can go into a shop and play a bunch of them to see which one I like so having one easily accessible is worth something to me;
  • I was influenced by the remarks of RumbaKing who owns one and likes the sound;
  • I like the sound too; and
  • The price I paid wasn't much more than one of those Francisco Navarro Student 2 flamenco guitars would have cost me by the time I paid for shippng to Canada, import duties and sales taxes.

It's much heavier than my Conde and the soundbox is much deeper - maybe an inch or so. It sounds different too - it's hard to describe but it seems much louder and the notes have more sustain. The Conde sounds harsher to me.

So that's it - so far I'm liking it.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 16 2011 0:55:47)

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GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 1:25:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
Wow [:D][8|]

From $15,000 to a little under $3000, to somewhere over $1000 (whatever shipping and tariffs to Canada would add). Hay-yah!

Sometimes I think beginners in the US should count their blessings. Yamahas for $300-$350, Navarro Estudios for $650-$1000, and Montalvos starting at $650. We can find something good to fit almost any budget.



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 1:29:49)

Indeed, people who live in Canada don't have many options.

For this reason I can understand your choice Yojimbo. I hope that you enjoy your new guitar and improve enough to become the first person to post some quality blind test audio clips.

Your Conde vs. your AG!



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 2:00:37)

I would love to do that Harry, but I'm afraid it's going to take me quite some time.



por medio -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 2:15:30)

Wow me too. Didn't see that coming.



chester -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 2:18:22)

quote:

I want a different guitar to learn on other than my Conde


No offense Yojimbo, but that is pure nonsense. Why would you rather play and learn on an inferior instrument that will not allow your sound to develop as much as it could?

I understand you're a beginner and let's say your sound is rated at 10/100. A good guitar will give you the potential to get to those higher numbers while a low-end guitar will 'cap-off' earlier.

Maybe you're thinking to yourself that you don't want to damage your expensive guitar, but you're thinking like a collector/investor rather than a guitarist (which is legitimate, but you won't become a guitarist that way). I don't know how far you'll get in your journey to become a musician, but one day you will look back, see my point and realize you just spent money on an unnecessary guitar.

Now let's get back to the REAL purpose of this thread; Estebanana - is it cool to end list items with semi-colons???



ChiyoDad -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 2:54:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yojimbo
But before we do, I should say that I bought an Andalusia guitar yesterday - of the Marcelo Barbero variety. No doubt you are wondering why I did after all the negativity from the forum members, but here are my reasons:

As long as you did so with your eyes open, your ears attuned, you mind satisfied after comparing it to alternatives, and your bulls**t-ometer on, then it was your money to spend as you wish.

I hope you did buy it AFTER weighing all of the assessments on this foro and others. I honestly suspect however that you had purchased it earlier. From my experience, no one defends the reputation of a guitar more than an owner. That is, until AFTER they sell it.



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 4:00:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiyoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yojimbo
But before we do, I should say that I bought an Andalusia guitar yesterday - of the Marcelo Barbero variety. No doubt you are wondering why I did after all the negativity from the forum members, but here are my reasons:

As long as you did so with your eyes open, your ears attuned, you mind satisfied after comparing it to alternatives, and your bulls**t-ometer on, then it was your money to spend as you wish.

I hope you did buy it AFTER weighing all of the assessments on this foro and others. I honestly suspect however that you had purchased it earlier. From my experience, no one defends the reputation of a guitar more than an owner. That is, until AFTER they sell it.


What's up with the people on this forum not believing what I say?

Everything I have ever posted here is 100% true.



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 4:10:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

I want a different guitar to learn on other than my Conde


No offense Yojimbo, but that is pure nonsense. Why would you rather play and learn on an inferior instrument that will not allow your sound to develop as much as it could?

I understand you're a beginner and let's say your sound is rated at 10/100. A good guitar will give you the potential to get to those higher numbers while a low-end guitar will 'cap-off' earlier.

Maybe you're thinking to yourself that you don't want to damage your expensive guitar, but you're thinking like a collector/investor rather than a guitarist (which is legitimate, but you won't become a guitarist that way). I don't know how far you'll get in your journey to become a musician, but one day you will look back, see my point and realize you just spent money on an unnecessary guitar.

Now let's get back to the REAL purpose of this thread; Estebanana - is it cool to end list items with semi-colons???


Chester

To answer your question, it is indeed that I want to preserve my good guitar until such time as I am skillful enough to appreciate it. That guitar is in near mint condition because it's been sitting unused for almost 35 years and I'd like to keep it in good condition as best I can. So I'm quite happy to have another guitar to learn on - one that I won't mind banging into things when I carry it around and subject it to the extremes of Canadian weather.

I do realize that I could have avoided the expense by using what I have (and I thought about that a lot), but on the other hand I'm fortunate enough to not have money problems so that aspect doesn't matter all that much to me.

And I can always give it to my niece or nephew when I'm done with it.



Florian -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 16 2011 4:57:06)

excellent Yojimbo likes his guitar others dont think highly of it ...i got it...brilliant ..now how about some actual flamenco discussion or playing discussion ?

man i held it long enough...after 14 pages i cant hold it any longher

I don't have a problem with you or your guitar Yojimbo what i do have a problem is that you are new here on a flamenco forum and all you can do is talk about a freaking guitar for 14 pages...do you wanna talk guitars all your life or wanna play em ? forget about anyone else right now..what about you ? you say you are a beginner ...wanna learn anything ? is there anything else on this forum that might help you more or interest you ?

i know its not entirely your fault it went this far and maybe at the start i could even see some of your points but your contribution to this place so far has been indirectly stopping any actual conversation about flamenco (even if unintentional)...however much you like your guitar...is this it ? do you plan to get involved or are you here to just talk about that guitar ?

one of the longest threads here has nothing to do with any actual flamenco discussion



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