RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Full Version)

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M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 1:10:57)

quote:

I have no connection with either the brand or with Ruben.
What I have said is that I've now met Ruben and I like him.


- This is interesting Yojimbo, I think we understand, it is logical and makes sense.
But how come you don't understand a simple thing about the main argument against these instruments that almost everyone here dislikes and it is not based on Prof.Ruben's person only, but I believe more it comes from experience and good, working senses, especially eyes and ears. Also a common sense [;)]

these are the painful points that disqualify the AG brand from serious competition with other, serious names:

- no clear or any verifiable origin
- no transparent marketing
- no attractive design
- no real sound
- no realistic price related to quality

And you haven't answered my question that I was so curious about to hear the answer from you. Why there are no people, or such a group of people disliking Arcangel Fernandez, Gerundino, Reyes or similar big names?? Why nobody assaults their owners for having crappy guitars?? Do you think it's because there is some secret conspiracy against poor AG?
I will answer this for you - because their products are speaking for themselves and need no further propagation. And because they're of certain obvious quality that is easily recognizable, so even an ordinary guy from the street would recognize it. But here we go, we investigate with a zooming glass after the AG's absenting quality. While there is no indication that we may look at some luthiery breakthrough and no solid evidence for it, some people have a belief, that there is a quality, but only a critical minority recognizes it... If this was a quality deal, the luthier would have no problem to stand up and clearly disclose, YES, THIS IS MY WORK.

For it's only a Prof. Ruben's indoctrination of rather naive students and for personal profit that this brand came into existence. And I predict these prices we have now objections against will soon drop remarkably, because I believe they are experiencing major problems with lower demand. Chinese are hard to beat in this quality range (given, that AG are not specifically chinese, what can also be doubted...) I'm saying you will get the same thing from China for the 1/10 of the price. Those folks work like bees, you know? Does it not sound like a big scam to you??



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 1:35:59)

quote:

I enjoyed that movie more than I probably should have.


Well it was sort of a parody of the whole princess thing. I'll admit enjoying it too!
[:D]

And Amy Adams was real easy on the eyes!
[:D][:D]



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 1:40:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M.S.A.

quote:

I have no connection with either the brand or with Ruben.
What I have said is that I've now met Ruben and I like him.


- This is interesting Yojimbo, I think we understand, it is logical and makes sense.
But how come you don't understand a simple thing about the main argument against these instruments that almost everyone here dislikes and it is not based on Prof.Ruben's person only, but I believe more it comes from experience and good, working senses, especially eyes and ears. Also a common sense [;)]

these are the painful points that disqualify the AG brand from serious competition with other, serious names:

- no clear or any verifiable origin
- no transparent marketing
- no attractive design
- no real sound
- no realistic price related to quality

And you haven't answered my question that I was so curious about to hear the answer from you. Why there are no people, or such a group of people disliking Arcangel Fernandez, Gerundino, Reyes or similar big names?? Why nobody assaults their owners for having crappy guitars?? Do you think it's because there is some secret conspiracy against poor AG?
I will answer this for you - because their products are speaking for themselves and need no further propagation. And because they're of certain obvious quality that is easily recognizable, so even an ordinary guy from the street would recognize it. But here we go, we investigate with a zooming glass after the AG's absenting quality. While there is no indication that we may look at some luthiery breakthrough and no solid evidence for it, some people have a belief, that there is a quality, but only a critical minority recognizes it... If this was a quality deal, the luthier would have no problem to stand up and clearly disclose, YES, THIS IS MY WORK.

For it's only a Prof. Ruben's indoctrination of rather naive students and for personal profit that this brand came into existence. And I predict these prices we have now objections against will soon drop remarkably, because I believe they are experiencing major problems with lower demand. Chinese are hard to beat in this quality range (given, that AG are not specifically chinese, what can also be doubted...) I'm saying you will get the same thing from China for the 1/10 of the price. Those folks work like bees, you know? Does it not sound like a big scam to you??


Well, I can't argue against some of the points your bring up (and I haven't been).

It just bugs me when some folks pontificate about the guitar not being very good when they've neither seen nor heard one in real life. It's the principle for me - and that's the only point I've really commented on.

Re the other stuff, I think it's fair to know where they come from and who makes them. The design looks ok to me.

And now....I must go practice a bit - I really would like to be able to play and all the posting I've done here today isn't helping my dexterity.



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 1:43:57)

quote:

And I predict these prices we have now objections against will soon drop remarkably, because I believe they are experiencing major problems with lower demand.

I saw that happen with the New Masters classical guitars. If I remember correctly, they were offered for $1500-$2000. Some people bought them. But as news came in that their tone was poor and that they could be purchased from the factory for $500 shipped (or on eBay from Singapore for $100 less), the prices and resale values decreased.

Who knows? They could be decent $500-$750 guitars.

But I think beginners are better served by just getting a Navarro student guitar. At least it will hold more of its value.



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 1:51:48)

yeah, well, I won't be surprised, cause it is not sustainable for a long run.
100% agree with Navarro, but not because I'm selling one also.
You also have Navarro?



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 2:04:59)

quote:

You also have Navarro?

No but I've played them and found them to be good guitars for the money. Knowing what I know now, I probably should have just saved more and bought myself one. EDIT: Note however that if you are in a position where you cannot spend more than $350 for a guitar, the Yamaha is an instrument that you can be very happy with.

But what I have works fine for me, especially since I'm still a beginner. I have my Yamaha which I still value for its versatility, performance for price, and take-anywhere robustness. I also have a Prudencio Saez 24 negra which I unexpectedly acquired. Being something of a minimalist, I was thinking of selling the Yamaha. In the end, I couldn't part with it so I now have two flamenco guitars. I guess there's nothing wrong with that.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 14 2011 2:19:47)

[Deleted by Admins]



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 3:01:18)

Was anyone aware that there is a street in Valencia called Calle de las Islas Canarias? Raimundo Guitars has their factory there. I don't know if any other manufacturer does.



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HolyEvil -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 6:55:20)

I have no experience with the AG guitars.. But I'm not sure whether this point had been made..

Why would u choose a guitar with unknown reputation, unknown source and which charges a very very high price?
I think someone mentioned Condes as also unknown source, but Conde has a reputation and a history that goes back some 70 years..

This AG guitar pops out of no where, and the proprietor is tell u that it's the best guitar out there based on what he think, and charges an arm and a leg..

I don't have contact with a AG guitar so i'll never know.. But an experienced guitarist mr r marlow had ready mentioned that he has a mate who shaved off alot of the bracing has made his AG sound like a HSL guitar..

If that's the case then just buy a HSL guitar..

Not sure how much flamenco experience, those on the board who has had contact with AG guitar has.. Can we trust our beginners/intermediate guitarist's judgement.
Or shd we trust an experienced FLAMENCO guitarist's opinion.

Cheers



Adam -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 7:40:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog

quote:

I enjoyed that movie more than I probably should have.


Well it was sort of a parody of the whole princess thing. I'll admit enjoying it too!
[:D]

And Amy Adams was real easy on the eyes!
[:D][:D]


My thoughts exactly!! haha. It was charmingly amusing much of the time, and when it wasn't, at least we had Amy Adams in a dress [;)]



rogeliocan -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 10:03:49)

The only credit I can give Ruben is for trying a new marketing strategy to sell a cheap and unknown product at a high price using collaborative internet to promote it and trying to create an image. He's not the first to use the internet but the first to do it for flamenco guitars. But like I said flamenco guitars aren't hamburgers and a guitar with a misleading label, no real name and no origin goes against everything and was a poor strategy for selling flamenco guitars.

It's clear Ruben put a lot of effort is this whole strategy but I would think he will have to change it to survive since eventually, new players will realize that they are paying a lot of money for a guitar with no background and that they will lose money at resale. Maybe a real name and destination will come out but we will never know who was the original builders and where they were made. Depending on where they are from he might have to move the factory, Andalusia Guitars, Spain, Made in Indonesia looks weird.

In any case the damage will have been done and the bull horn head stock may have to go too, it will be hard to become a synonym of integrity and quality.

Ruben should just be honest with his guitars and people won't be so hard, otherwise don't expect them to embrace them because of infomercial internet spam.



Kate -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 13:18:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rumbaking
I told him I was planning a trip in 2012 to go to Gerardo's Class in San Lucar and he told me that if I was going to Spain he would be glad to take me the factory in the Islas Canarias where these guitars are made.....



Funny thing to say considering that Las Islas Canarias is not actually in Spain. You'd have to catch a plane.



Escribano -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 13:56:33)

quote:

Who are you? The forum's dad?


No, I am. You have said your piece more than once. I believe we have heard you and some us still choose to disagree with you.

Move on from this or move out. If you do not, I will assume you are a shill working on Ruben's behalf and suspend your account.

Be very clear that it is the spamming and crass marketing techniques that are behind my position on this and not the quality or origins of a guitar.



Adam -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 14:02:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

Who are you? The forum's dad?


No, I am.


Aw. Can I at least be the forum's drunken uncle?



Escribano -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 14:06:02)

quote:

Aw. Can I at least be the forum's drunken uncle?


Ok, if you must.



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 14:14:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate
quote:

ORIGINAL: rumbaking
I told him I was planning a trip in 2012 to go to Gerardo's Class in San Lucar and he told me that if I was going to Spain he would be glad to take me the factory in the Islas Canarias where these guitars are made.....

Funny thing to say considering that Las Islas Canarias is not actually in Spain. You'd have to catch a plane.


Which was why I mentioned "Calle de Las Islas Canarias". [;)] If Guitarras Raimundo is along that street, there's a good chance that some other (smaller) factory might be there as well.

There can be a fine line between seller misrepresentation and buyer misinterpretation.
[:D]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 14 2011 14:33:08)

[Deleted by Admins]



Kate -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 15:49:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog
Which was why I mentioned "Calle de Las Islas Canarias". [;)] If Guitarras Raimundo is along that street, there's a good chance that some other (smaller) factory might be there as well.


Yes but if your guitars were made in Valencia that would give a lot more credence than saying the Canary Isles, Valencia having a guitar reputation.

I picked up a great Raimundo the other day, 68 euros for a student model in a second hand shop. Pimientito and Emilo Maya have both played it and confirmed it was a wonderful bargain.

Rumbaking, didnt mean to infer you didnt know where the Canary Isles were, just seemed funny some-one should say that if you're coming to Spain you should pass by a factory which is seriously some distance away from Spain. Anyway you will enjoy San Lucar, a guitarists heaven for those two weeks with juergas every night. I managed 2 nights and then had to come home and recuperate and I wasn't even taking classes. Gerardo is an absolute sweetie
[;)]



kozz -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 16:27:44)

quote:

I still believe the guitar I have is a very good quality instrument with some very unique characteristics but I think it is time for me to move on


Rumbaking,
I believe its the same model I've played a while ago.
I also liked it at first, very light, nice neck, dry sounding...I liked the ideas of doin things differently...

Although I was sceptic when I wanted to try it, I was pleased with it.
But eventually went for the FN Concert....no regrets.



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Doitsujin -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 17:24:28)

quote:

I was going to Spain he would be glad to take me the factory in the Islas Canarias where these guitars are made.....


Why such a rough geographical location?? Why doesn´t he just pass you the exact address and contact names?



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 19:19:22)

I doubt very much they come for the Canary Isles. Think of the transportation cost of sending wood there to be fabricated into guitars and then sending the guitars off island. It seems too far from the supply chain to be economical.

Then again who knows, maybe it's the canary birds that impart the sonorous dulcet tones.



Escribano -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 19:24:13)

Even the Spanish guys on the PdL forum wanted to visit the workshop in the Canaries but got no address out of Ruben (go figure). They share our opinions for similar reasons.



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 20:31:53)

It's almost as if anyone putting up a defense of AG or Ruben simply undermines him even more because it invites even more scrutiny. If I were on the side of AG I would keep quiet and see if the product can rebuild its image at a different price point in order to find an honest niche in the market.

Personally I think this thread was best and more interesting when it was off topic on English grammar pet peeves. Then the AG defenders dragged it back to Andelusionals and most people here were ready to forget about it. I think bringing the focus back to AG and being accusatory to those who oppose them caused AG's even more damage.

The argument that people actually need to have an AG their hands to judge it does not hold water. The guitar itself is not what is being scrutinized, it's the marketing that is being deconstructed. To say nothing about a questionable marketing scheme in a way makes one complicit with the scheme, if you know it may be taking advantage of others.


Anyone have any good grammar jokes?



Escribano -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 20:36:06)

quote:

Anyone have any good grammar jokes?


A woman walks into a bar and says "Gimme a double entendre", so the barman gave her one. [;)]



XXX -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 20:42:41)

Stephen,
today i had the first lecture on "business english" for this semester.
I told the teacher that i like to play football. She tried to correct me by saying "you like soccer." Actually she was speaking with someone else, but i just jumped into the conversation in my elegant way. Any-ways, i tried to make her understand that football is football. The whole world refers to it as football. The english, the german, the whole spanish speaking worls calls it futbol... its just the americans that refer to it as "soccer". And sorry if i say this frankly but america is not really an authority in football.

Lets see if i can convince her until the end of this semester...



Estevan -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 20:43:15)

quote:

Anyone have any good grammar jokes?


A sentence that ends with five prepositions (thanks to Michael Cooney):

"Mother, what did you bring that book that I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"



HolyEvil -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 20:49:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rumbaking

.I serously doubt I will take him up on the offer since I am selling my Andalusian and buying a Sanchis.....so beyond normal curiosity I really don't care where they are made. I still believe the guitar I have is a very good quality instrument with some very unique characteristics but I think it is time for me to move on ..... I am waiting on an email from David Sanchis Lopez about my new guitar.....
[8D]


hi mate.. please don't take this as an attack on you..
but I have to say that if a person spend 3500 on a guitar.. it should be able to serve him/her for a long long time.. especially if you're a beginner or intermediate guitarist.. you may be advanced, but I'm not sure..
If it's sold after a while for another guitar.. then there is something wrong with the guitar?

cheers mate



Escribano -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 20:50:58)

quote:

its just the americans that refer to it as "soccer"


We used to call it soccer too - from its proper name of "Association Football".



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 21:31:16)

quote:

A woman walks into a bar and says "Gimme a double entendre", so the barman gave her one.


I said GOOD grammar jokes!



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 14 2011 21:32:39)

quote:

Lets see if i can convince her until the end of this semester...


I think you should sockher until she gets it.



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