RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Full Version)

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Adam -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:47:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

But we are not talking about the people living in Jere here!
It's about non-spanish

quote:

When it comes to culture, birth is far more important than it should be.

So the gitanos (non-spaniard) have something more than the payos (non-spaniard) lacks ?!


All I was saying was, as Mark noted, if you grow up around flamenco, you're going to have a much better shot at being very good than someone who only discovers it later in life. I think it's pretty obvious that if you're growing up around flamenco, you're most likely either in Spain or living elsewhere but of Andaluz (and often gitano) origin.

In Andalucía, you grow up surrounded by flamenco - especially if you're gitano. That counts for a lot. There's nothing genetic about it, it's pure culture.



Rain -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:48:35)

quote:

Is Spanish always better than none Spanish.


No.



XXX -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:57:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramparts
When it comes to culture, birth is far more important than it should be. You can transcend the class you're born into, the politics, the nationality, but it's extremely difficult to truly switch cultures. Once an American, rare is the person who can move and become, say, a bona fide German.... But that's very, very hard to do when you've been born and raised completely separately from that culture.


-10000000
millions of people emigrating/having emigrated to other countries proove that wrong. People have different mentalities, even if they are born and raised in german or wherever for several generations. Culture is easily changeable like a coat. If i would be attracted by spanish or gitano culture i would adapt myself, learn spanish and history. Point is im NOT interested in spanish/gitano culture.

Flamenco playing/singing/dancing is a learned and trained ability. The earlier you start, the more resources you have and MOST IMPORTANTLY the more disciplined you are, the better you will get at it. Not much to do with culture. Culture is something very different (in my view).

GItanos are the gipsies of Spain. They are usually spanish, or at least the vast vast majority of them is. I dont the much confusion in these terms.



mezzo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:09:36)

Might be interesting to heard what, for example, Pedro Cortes the guitarist in the States think about it ? [8|]



XXX -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:11:39)

or maybe Agujetas - "el ultimo cantaor"?



Doitsujin -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:13:34)

quote:

agree,,,,,but its clear that this guy is not German and where his ancestors come from


haha..[:D] well.. nice.

But seriously. Thats exactly the problem. You have the nationality of the country where you are born. And not where your parents/ grand-parents etc. came from. If not, B. Obama would not be an American. Where are you born Arash and which passport do you have? [;)]

And it is exactly what I'm saying that the environment where you grow up determines your character. (Looking through the keyhole when grandpa was dancing flamenco on the kitchen table,...doesn´t count)



Adam -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:19:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

Might be interesting to heard what, for example, Pedro Cortes the guitarist in the States think about it ? [8|]


Where he was raised by a flamenco guitarist dad who hung out with Sabicas.

I think you're both misunderstanding my point. Obviously a non-Spaniard, even one who came to flamenco at a relatively late age, can get very, very good, even professional level. Look at guys like Ricardo or Jason. But it's hard to deny that it's much harder and there's a very good reason it's much more uncommon.

And Deniz, what I was saying about culture wasn't that it's impossible to emigrate to a new country and integrate very well. Obviously millions of people do that. But it's much, much rarer to do that and not still have some vague air of "foreignness" about you. Hell, I've only lived in the UK for a few months and even if I make a career and a life here and stay for decades I don't think I'll ever be truly English (whatever that might mean) - there will always be a bit of "Americanness" to me. And that's just hopping across the pond to a country that used to own us! Imagine trying to become Spanish or Japanese or Mozambique....ean. Anyway, it's something that I find interesting but I admit is a bit tangential to the main thrust of this thread [;)]



XXX -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:24:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramparts
But it's much, much rarer to do that and not still have some vague air of "foreignness" about you.


You did not get the point. I said that people can " have different mentalities, even if they are born and raised in german or wherever for several generations. "
And "air of foreignness" is pretty vague too. I really have no idea what you are talking about by that. If YOU think that culture is such a pre-determined thing (from birth to death or how??) then ok. I dont think so.



Pimientito -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:35:58)

quote:

So the gitanos (non-spaniard)

I find that comment pretty rascist. What exactly is a Spaniard? He is a mix of a Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Visigoth, Jew, Moor, Gypsy and Christian. There is no such thing as pure blood Spanish. The gitanos have been in Spain since 1470's and living among Spanish people for over 5 centuries. You cant say a Spanish Gitano born in Spain isnt a Spaniard!

Gypsies in other countries in Europe may not have the same level of socialisation and integration as they do in modern Spain. Here Gitanos, payos and even foreigners play flamanco together.

Obviously a payo living in Jerez or Granada is going to have the cultural background to play Flamenco much more than a payo in Asturias. A payo living in England is very unlikely to have a cultural background in flamenco. The point is that whether you are Gitano, payo or foreigner, you will have a huge advantage at learning flamenco arts if you are surrounded by them from a young age.



Arash -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:40:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Where are you born Arash and which passport do you have? [;)]



I was born in Frankfurt/Iran.

[:D]



mezzo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 17:48:12)

quote:

You cant say a Spanish Gitano born in Spain isnt a Spaniard!

Indeed i never say something similar.
Please take in consideration that my english is pretty bad and sometimes i can't express myself in the right way.

What i want to tell is a gitano who is not born in spain, not grew up in spain, do not have a connexion with Spain for more than, let say, 2 generations...WTF should i call him a spanish guy ?!

I don't know maybe it's because where i live there's a lot of gitanos like the way i describe above, but some of you guys just really think that all the gitanos only live in Spain?

This topic is about the non-spanish people who play flamenco so i can say that i know gitanos who are not spanish and play flamenco! Whitout any racist idea as you stated!



Ron.M -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 18:20:23)

Juan Martin says he was born in Malaga....(same as Tomatito)

Both popular players on the World stage.

So there you go...

cheers,

Ron

(Just thought I'd throw a bit more petroleum on the flames..[:D])



NormanKliman -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 18:29:12)

Not sure where this thread is going but IMO any kind of special skill one might notice in gypsies is not about blood, it's about family.



Doitsujin -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 18:34:36)

quote:

I was born in Frankfurt/Iran.

[:D]


[:D] .... ok I understand.

Well,... that makes you... German.... (Iranian ecotype [;)]) [:D]


EDIT: Wait... you are born in Frankfurt but you have the Iranian pass? Or both?



Adam -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 18:35:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

Not sure where this thread is going but IMO any kind of special skill one might notice in gypsies is not about blood, it's about family.


But surely only gitanos have the compás gene in their blood, constantly oscillating to the rhythm of a bulería? [8D]



NormanKliman -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 18:40:02)

You remember the film "Who framed Roger Rabbit"? The scene where the bad guy raps out "Shave and a haircut" and Roger Rabbit, "toon" that he is, eventually has to respond... [:D]



Rain -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 19:01:21)

I love how this thread has grown to the simple question "Is Spanish always better than none Spanish" or to what he really was asking "Could I, a non-Spaniard ever be able to play flamenco as well as a Spaniard?"

At the moment I would have to say no, because in the world olympics of Flamenco all the gold is in Spain. As well Spain is producing more flamenco artist' at a faster pace, for the obvious reasons(Everyone knows what Flamenco is and it is something that is a part of there culture)

Now, does that mean that it is an art form that non-spaniards can only reach levels that are worthy of Silver medals, I think not. Are none Spaniards at a disadvantage? Is a Spaniard studying English in Spain at a disadvantage than a Spaniard living in England or the States?

Music is a language that anyone can learn, how well someone speaks it is determined by how much one loves it.



Ron.M -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 19:37:47)

quote:

Music is a language that anyone can learn, how well someone speaks it is determined by how much one loves it.


True...

But the tiny nuances in the music (the part that makes all the difference) that has grown out of a small cultural area are really only learned by those born and raised in that area or by associating closely with such people who are visiting or have emigrated to your country.

Sure, you can with a lot of work, do a good photocopy in your bedroom that will sound convincing to other "foreigners", but probably not to the knowledgeable natives IMO.

Much in the same way that you can study a foreign language for years and years, but still not get taken for a native speaker from a particular region, unless you have spent quite a considerable time in that region, working, living and socializing with those people.

That is not to say that you cannot enjoy playing and performing Flamenco and become extremely competent, but if you are doing it at at a distance with no regular connection with performers who know that culture intimately and instinctively....then it's gonna be pretty difficult to ever think about putting on a show in Sevilla or Jerez, IMO

I'm not trying to be a downer here, but only realistic..the way I see it anyway.

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 19:45:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Sure, you can with a lot of work, do a good photocopy in your bedroom that will sound convincing to other "foreigners", but probably not to the natives.


Surely SOME people, payo or gitano, spanish or not, WILL dismiss anything that comes from a non-spanish payo, simply because they think they cannot play.
But as always, this gene/culture/"you have to be born into that" kind of thing once again serves as an excuse for playing so poor, a theory which has been countless times proven wrong by guiris playing very well actually.



Ron.M -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 20:07:11)

OK, to be less of a downer on this issue...

I think the way that modern Flamenco guitar is developing, then the possibilities are probably unknown.

I'm thinking about the time when "Rock & Roll" was not authentic unless performed by Americans, preferably from the South.

But the Brits kept at it, and after a while, the folk from the US were buying albums of bands from the UK.

Then the scene shifted to "Only American and Brit bands can play Rock".
(Well...mainly because the European (continent) bands were so dire at that time...only fit for the Eurovision Song Contest.. [:D])

Then that changed too!

So there's possibly hope.

Who knows?

cheers,

Ron

(Still... can't say I've heard a great Rock band from Iran or Turkey though...[;)][:D])



Rain -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 20:28:22)

quote:

But the Brits kept at it, and after a while, the folk from the US were buying albums of bands from the UK.


Exactly why loving an art form is so important. These british early rockers were in love with american music, John Lennon adored Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry, the same way a non-spaniard adores PDL and Nino Ricardo. These small cultural ares that you spoke of are expanding every day thanx to express delivery and open door to information. Today one does not need to get on a plane or learn Spanish to take a lesson from Gerardo Nunez.



XXX -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 21:08:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
(Still... can't say I've heard a great Rock band from Iran or Turkey though...[;)][:D])


lol how many have you heard then? [8D]
dont know if they are great by rock standards, but i seriously cant stand this "rock" music being spread all over the world. especially in turkey almost every music video contains one "rock sounding" electrical guitar. its music in "mass production" and of an unseen uniformity IMO and it doesnt inspire me the least. ok Ron whos the master downer in this thread now? [:D]



Rain -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 21:11:16)

quote:

(Still... can't say I've heard a great Rock band from Iran or Turkey though... )


Nor have I, but I have heard some good jazz, classical, and flamenco.



mrMagenta -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 23:04:25)

A lot of people speak swedish with a heavy foreign accent, many of them have a fine vocabulary, but even those with a fairly small vocabulary often use their words to say something profound or beautiful, witty or whatever. I would never dismiss what they say just because they 'sound funny' or put their words in a strange order. Why not use local flavor to your advantage, develop it, and do something artistic with it. Even though I'm very interested in flamenco culture I think it's a better idea to focus on trying to achieve something of quality than to trail off on some bound to fail maximum assimilation project. I'm an extranjero and if I play flamenco, that will always be obvious. If it's obvious because the music is really bad then it IS a serious problem. But one that could be helped by listening to more music, practicing more diligently and having more fun!



aloysius -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 4 2011 5:33:24)

One of my favourites outside of Spain is Jin Oki from Japan - He's got a fair few albums now, some more commercial than others; is definitely a kick-ass player.



Florian -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 4 2011 5:40:42)

quote:

Then the scene shifted to "Only American and Brit bands can play Rock".
(Well...mainly because the European (continent) bands were so dire at that time...only fit for the Eurovision Song Contest.. )


WHAT THE Hell Does that mean ???!![&:] is that some kind of encrypted dig at the quality of Eurovison ?...

nobody else can make music like this ..its got crazy choreography its got some type of amazing human reverb, futuristic costumes, a message !!! cause we can all relate, if u lose any kind of password is not a good thing its a bad thing...probably have to fill out forms and make phone-calls..etc....i am so sick of rock songs i cant relate to..




Kubase -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 4 2011 8:10:41)

A blind test would be good - listen to some pieces and answer "Spanish player" or "not Spanish player".



Ruphus -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 4 2011 10:58:53)

In the eighties there was an attempt of backwardedness trying to prove how much genetics were to determine character. ( How many discussions did I have then with so many people who loved to believe that nonesense!)
Some sicentists had reported on siblings grown up separately and how these had allegedly developed in the same way, eventhough brought up in different environment.

Naturally, this had to turn out as intented hoax.
Environment / surroundness remains the absolutely dominating factor that determines which of given talents will be unfolded, which of them will not and which of not genetically given talents might be fostered to more or less proficiency nonetheless.
( Worth mentioning besides: Communication, musicality, dancing, sculpturing and drawing are standard given talents with every common individual. Whereas, in how far supported after birth or not, being the big if.)

The environmental influence on development starts prenatal, and in recent years it has turned out that already babies will detect foreign accent.
Seeing the significance of surrounding and what I have seen in docus about Spanish Roma family life, I would expect them to have a ledge in musicality ( flamenco ) to most cultures out there. ( Not meaning that great gitanos had to be exclusively Roma in the same time.)

I sure wished to have been brought up in a musical family where almost everyone plays, sings or dances. With the people gathering on a regular basis, voluntarily sessioning.

Which in my opinion being specially common with Iberian mentalities anyway.

Ruphus



Stu -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 4 2011 12:28:32)

quote:

black, blues music something we can all play.


thats a mildly offensive opening phrase

If you think that the blues is "something we can all play" then surely the same goes for flamenco?

If you're considering that you may have to be a spanish to play flamenco then perhaps you should consider that you may have to be a black play the blues.

im not saying this is true but a sweeping statment like that shows little respect for blues music and its origins.



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