Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Full Version)

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cavedave -> Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 11:46:25)

We all know that the Stones made black, blues music something we can all play.

Unlike Flamenco that is dominated by players from Spain, if not the traditional Spanish gypsy (forgive the lack of PC I know they prefer to be called something else). I remember the fuss made over Matitas De Plata - rejected because he wasn’t Spanish even though his gypsy credentials were impeccable (mind you, I thought he was crap, an aunty gave me one of his albums as a present, it only got one listen).

Is there anyone around who is neither Spanish nor Gypsy who can free Flamenco from being the preserve of a few with the right background?

As an art form, it seems to me, so well developed that, just as the Stones with blues, it can be played expressively and in style by just about anyone willing to take the time to develop the requisite skills.

Or are there those who disagree with this and feel Flamenco, like French wine, needs terroir to be worth consuming.

Also, Can anyone can recommend a good, none Spanish, flamenco, recording artist?



Arash -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 13:02:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavedave



Also, Can anyone can recommend a good, none Spanish, flamenco, recording artist?


these are some, who have a CD out

Adam del Monte
Jason MCGuire
Grisha Goryachev
Amir John Haddad
Michio
Pascual Gallo
Tino van der Sman
Miguel de la Bastide

and of course......Juan Martin
[:D](j/k)

.....

and we have a lot people with spanish or half spanish background who lived their whole life outside spain (in US, Europe, etc.), or were born somewhere else....like Juan Carmona in France...

and we have a lot of (non spanish) people, who are technically very advanced and have nice compositions, but not known at all, and no CD

.....

the rest of the discussion, others may be in the mood to discuss this....
we have been gone through this several times. just check the archive.



Elie -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 13:24:46)

I would like to add to Arash's list Jose Tanaka, if you got the chance grab his cds Lluvia and Gypsy's Dream, he really have great compositions I'm spinning his cds all the time nowadays.

I don't think Spanish are better at flamenco but I would say maybe it's easier for them to learn due to the flamencoish atmosphere in Spain and the variety of teachers over there , most of people outside Spain don't find good teachers to work with, while some Spanish people grow with flamenco . that's my opinion over all



at_leo_87 -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 13:52:37)

ricardo marlow. his cd is one of my favorites.



Ricardo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 15:06:48)

tomatito once stated the majority of top guitarists are payo (non gypsy). As you narrow your focus of flamenco you find yourself in jerez. Perhaps you should start there and branch out . You will find good guitarists and singers not from jerez, then out of the triangle of sevilla, cadiz, jerez....then open up all of andalucia there are greats all around. Then further out to extremedura, up to madrid, and even barcelona. Leaving spain you have france and finally the whole of europe and asia and the rest of the world. The world is a much smaller place today, but most aficionados recognize jerez as the center of planet flamenco. But to say "jerez is always better" is a big generalization that is not really fair to what the whole of flamenco has to offer.

Ricardo



felipe -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 15:27:28)

As you see, there are non - Spanish flamenco people that are good. Unless of course you don't speak about singing. It's much more difficult to learn than guitar and dance. So I would like to ask qquestion:

Do you know any non - Spanish flamenco singer that is good enough, that we can call him a flamenco singer, not a poor imitation?

I would really want to know.



mezzo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 15:30:22)

quote:

Do you know any non - Spanish flamenco singer that is good enough, that we can call him a flamenco singer, not a poor imitation?

Do you mean a payo or a gitano?



cavedave -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 15:55:02)

Thanks for replying. I didn’t mean to be irritating going back over well trodden ground. The information has help me move forward and I’m off to listen to the suggestions.



Ricardo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 15:57:12)

quote:

Do you know any non - Spanish flamenco singer that is good enough, that we can call him a flamenco singer, not a poor imitation?


There are some french gypsies that can sing flamenco. Although they claim heritage to northern spain. And of course there are many aficionados who can sing well that don't admit themselves to being a proper "cantaor". Of course there are many that sing and call themselves professional flamenco singers, both spanish and non spanish that are not good at all. At this point what does "good enough" mean and that may just be personal taste.

Ricardo



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 19:02:01)

Two excellent nonSpanish flamenco guitarists that occur to me immediately are the late Ian Davies, and David Serva (aka David Jones): one English, one American.



Doitsujin -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 19:36:37)

quote:

these are some, who have a CD out

Adam del Monte
Jason MCGuire
Grisha Goryachev
Amir John Haddad
Michio
Pascual Gallo
Tino van der Sman
Miguel de la Bastide

and of course......Juan Martin
(j/k)


You forgot Rafael Cortes who is german and 10 times better than all of the guitarists in that list together... man Arash XD



To the topic of the thread:

Flamenco is most popular in spain, so it is clear that the best players are from spain coz there are more artists and a better environment for flamenco to get a hit (hit = excellent flamenco artist)
If flamenco would be as popular as in spain also in other countries. Than it would get balanced for sure. It has nothing to do with genes or blood. That idea is pure rubbish.

The second question is: Why must be flamenco sung in spanish? It must not.

To the amateur guitar skills world wide in general:
If you check the amateur uploads on youtube you see it is balanced. Im pretty sure that there are as many worse players from spain than from any other country in respect to the upload count per person. Than there are even more worse spanish players than none spanish players. I see excellent amateur playing from other countries than spain, too.



Adam -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 19:38:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

ricardo marlow. his cd is one of my favorites.


This.



Arash -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 19:56:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

You forgot Rafael Cortes


oops.
yes, he is a monster.
but he also belongs to the other groups i mentioned in the second part (spanish background, living in other countries, in this case Germany)



XXX -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 20:22:18)

in the end its just clapping playing dancing and singing. An artform as beautiful and ugly as any other artform can be too on this planet, once you have developed a taste for that artform. main point is having fun with it, loving it and sharing it with as many people as you can.



Doitsujin -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 21:28:36)

quote:

but he also belongs to the other groups i mentioned in the second part (spanish background, living in other countries, in this case Germany)


Well,... its only a matter of how far you go backwards in time. We all came from africa. My ancestors, yours, Pacos, Rafaels.... [:D] so,... do you think the flamenco-soup in spanish blood (better gipsy blood) dilutes over generations.. and after some generations of crossing in other races, the children arent able to perform flamenco any more?
If that is true... Pacos flamenco-"soup" is already 50% diluted with portuguese soup but he is the best... how come? [:-]

The only thing that counts is in which environment you grow up and live. Check Tarzan for reference. ;-D



Arash -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 21:55:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

quote:

but he also belongs to the other groups i mentioned in the second part (spanish background, living in other countries, in this case Germany)


Well,... its only a matter of how far you go backwards in time. We all came from africa. My ancestors, yours, Pacos, Rafaels.... [:D] so,... do you think the flamenco-soup in spanish blood (better gipsy blood) dilutes over generations.. and after some generations of crossing in other races, the children arent able to perform flamenco any more?
If that is true... Pacos flamenco-"soup" is already 50% diluted with portuguese soup but he is the best... how come? [:-]

The only thing that counts is in which environment you grow up and live. Check Tarzan for reference. ;-D


agree,,,,,but its clear that this guy is not German and where his ancestors come from [:D][:D][:D]



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Adam -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 21:57:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

quote:

but he also belongs to the other groups i mentioned in the second part (spanish background, living in other countries, in this case Germany)


Well,... its only a matter of how far you go backwards in time. We all came from africa. My ancestors, yours, Pacos, Rafaels.... [:D] so,... do you think the flamenco-soup in spanish blood (better gipsy blood) dilutes over generations.. and after some generations of crossing in other races, the children arent able to perform flamenco any more?
If that is true... Pacos flamenco-"soup" is already 50% diluted with portuguese soup but he is the best... how come? [:-]

The only thing that counts is in which environment you grow up and live. Check Tarzan for reference. ;-D


Um, excuse me Doit, but we didn't come from Africa, we came from the Garden of Eden 6000 years ago. Duh.



Doitsujin -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 22:06:39)

quote:

Um, excuse me Doit, but we didn't come from Africa, we came from the Garden of Eden 6000 years ago. Duh.


sure.[:D]Well, but than my joke-explanation is still true. Even if you believe to be the product of massive incest and got no genetic disease coz of that....which is... almost not possible, there are some rumors that the Garden of Eden was in Egypt.[:D] But,.. yeah... as I told in past... I wont discuss about religion. Coz the people heat up a little bit too much when talking about that... So. I´m out. [8D]



Adam -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 22:08:37)

No, the Garden of Eden was in Independence, Missouri. Everyone knows that.



Sean -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 22:18:04)

Go back far enough and you can say its not even Spanish blood at all, the gypsies were a group of mistreated immigrants. It all has more to do with passion and availability+popularity certainly helps.



Arash -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 22:28:32)

everyone knows that garden eden was somewhere between iran and turkey.

so, me and deniz are the only real flamencos here.

period.



Sean -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 22:40:03)

Duh, we all came from our mothers I know I learned it in school once.



mezzo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 2 2011 23:03:48)

So it seems that the question is about the non-spaniard but payos. The gitanos are not included in? btw all the gitanos don't come from Andalusia ya know?

Antonio el Titi for example

quote:

and we have a lot people with spanish or half spanish background who lived their whole life outside spain (in US, Europe, etc.), or were born somewhere else....like Juan Carmona in France...

I don't get what you mean here.

In the south of France, there are gitanos who were born and grow up there. Do you think they also have some "(half)spanish background"?

Other example of "frenchies background" who works professionaly in Andalusia are Antonio Moya, Guillermo Guillen...

Also from italy : Michele Iaccarino.



Pimientito -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 15:24:02)

quote:

You forgot Rafael Cortes who is german


Cave Dave...As you are new you should know that Doit last said something that wasnt a joke way back in 2008.
Rafael Cortes is as Spanish Gypsy as they come. He is the nephew of Carmen Cortes and just happens to have made a career in Germany.



Doitsujin -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:12:48)

quote:

Rafael Cortes is as Spanish Gypsy as they come. He is the nephew of Carmen Cortes and just happens to have made a career in Germany.


Half correct.

He is born in Germany, went to school in Germany, lives till now in Germany, in a German society. So, he is German and not just made career in Germany.

You are right that he calls himself half gypsy. Well,..whatever is so special about Gypsies in Spanish. I don´t get it. In my country they are unemployed, lazy bums who don´t integrate themselves in the society. Its an insult here to call somebody gypsy.

I don´t believe that there is a flamenco-gene which only gypsies have or something in their blood that makes em better in flamenco than anybody else. Thats pure nonsense.



Pimientito -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:18:23)

Its nothing to do with Genetics...its culture. If you grow up with Japanese parents you find speaking Japanese very easy. If you don't then its very hard work...not impossible but much more work and effort. Its the same if you come from a family of flamencos, the cultural background is a huge advantage. Its just that generally Spanish gypsies are more exposed to flamenco culture as children than non gypsies.



Arash -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:18:56)

@Doit - german gypsies are different than those in spain.
someone in spain said that not even the gypsies in spain themselves want to be associated with these other special gypsies and that they hate them.[:D]

yes, you are politically incorrect here but i have to agree with you.
never met one single so called "gypsy" in germany, whome i wanted to meet again. dangerous, annoying, anti social, and absolutely no principles in everything they do. no matter how hard i try, i can't accept such an attitude i saw from them.
and i am a foreigner here myself.



mezzo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:25:01)

quote:


I don´t believe that there is a flamenco-gene which only gypsies have or something in their blood that makes em better in flamenco than anybody else. Thats pure nonsense.

yeah!
But look at what happen on this topic.
We speak about non-spanish people. BUT when you ask are the gypsy included or excluded of this "non-spanish" world...no answers!

So i understand by some of the replies and some of the silence that the gitanos are not considered like the payos!
Why make a differentiation here, saying "ok but it's coz of the spanish background" AND on a other hand claims that the gitanos have nothing more then the payos?

No differenciation means NO differenciation! [8D]

EDIT
I obviously speak about gypsy who were born and grew up out of Spain. With no or a very little connexion with Spain from more then 1 or 2 generation!



Adam -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:33:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

Its nothing to do with Genetics...its culture. If you grow up with Japanese parents you find speaking Japanese very easy. If you don't then its very hard work...not impossible but much more work and effort. Its the same if you come from a family of flamencos, the cultural background is a huge advantage. Its just that generally Spanish gypsies are more exposed to flamenco culture as children than non gypsies.


+1000000. If you grow up in Jerez surrounded by flamenco, on the streets, in your house, in school, juergas all the time, you're going to be better at it than someone who grows up outside Spain and, like most of us, doesn't even discover flamenco until their late teens or something.

When it comes to culture, birth is far more important than it should be. You can transcend the class you're born into, the politics, the nationality, but it's extremely difficult to truly switch cultures. Once an American, rare is the person who can move and become, say, a bona fide German. Even if you integrate yourself well, there's almost always an aspect of foreignness left. That's why I was so impressed when I met David Serva, for example, who I first met when he was BSing in the Plaza de Plateros with some old Spaniards, then played some mean flamenco at our lesson; I didn't realize he was from San Francisco until he started talking to me in a flawless American accent! But that's very, very hard to do when you've been born and raised completely separately from that culture.



mezzo -> RE: Is Spanish always better than none Spanish. (Feb. 3 2011 16:43:18)

But we are not talking about the people living in Jere here!
It's about non-spanish

quote:

When it comes to culture, birth is far more important than it should be.

So the gitanos (non-spaniard) have something more than the payos (non-spaniard) lacks ?!



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