Help needed - string tension (Full Version)

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Andy Culpepper -> Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 0:09:33)

OK so a client is ready to return a guitar to me for one reason: he feels the string tension is too high. He says the strings are extremely hard to fret with the left hand, and he is a professional musician who regularly plays 3 hour gigs so it is a big issue.
I need to get to the bottom of this thing of string tension.
Here are the factors as I see them:

STRINGS: Hannabach medium tension basses and Conde Hermanos medium tension trebles.

SCALE LENGTH: this guitar is 650 mm, it's a fact that the longer the length of the string the more tension it needs to be at the same pitch, so 660 or longer would mean slightly higher tension. Although informal studies have shown that players don't really notice this.

ACTION: the action on this guitar is 3.0 mm - 2.8 mm. The string clearance at the nut is what I would consider just enough -- when the string is fretted at the 3rd fret, the distance from the string to the 1st fret is just a few 1000ths of an inch. String height at bridge is 7.5 mm.

TOP CONSTRUCTION: this particular spruce top is 2.2 mm thick under the bridge, with 5 fan braces under the bridge ranging from 3.7 mm high to 3.2 mm high. The bridge is Indian Rosewood weighing in at 16 grams. There is no bridge patch, lattice brace, Bouchet bar, whathaveyou.


What other factor am I missing??
Do other luthiers feel that new guitars with new strings need some "playing in" in order to loosen up and feel comfy? I think that must be what it is because I don't see any other reason why it would be hard to play, and it didn't feel hard to me.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 0:47:23)

Perhaps he has overextended himself financially and needs an excuse to return the instrument.



M.S.A. -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 0:58:22)

I wouldn't accept the guitar back Andy. you make excellent instruments. although I haven't held any of yours in my hands but I doubt his reasoning is legitimate. people have all sorts of reasons, but business is business. you'll allow it for onece to happen and then you'll get a trend out of it. perhaps you can give him a customer service, or additional adjustment of some of the parameters that might seem to be relevant in this issue and then you are done.

cheers



at_leo_87 -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 1:34:36)

maybe it's not string tension but something else, like the size of the neck. or maybe his hands are just exhausted from the gigs.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 2:10:50)

Is this your choice of strings or his?
Mediums vary in tension between brands, maybe he needs low tension in those brands.
Neck shape as mentioned above
Has the neck relief or string height changed since it left you?
I don't believe that perceived string tension for the LEFT hand is affected by soundboard mobility.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 2:34:48)

As far as I know the neck relief is the same as when I sent it. I kept it for a week after stringing it up to see how it would move. I shipped it with the strings loosened.
The neck shape and depth, nut width and string spacing were all built to his spec of what he is used to.
His choice of strings.
He feels this even with a capo on.



TANúñez -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 3:52:00)

I think the reason could be somewhere along the lines of what Jeff mentioned. However, I think not offering a return if the client is not satisfied is bad business. I personally wouldn't buy a guitar from a dealer or luthier that didn't offer a return policy if not satisfied. You just don't know if you'll like the guitar until you play it. There should be a window of return though and not just a return anytime. Say a few days. If you get it back and there is nothing wrong with it I'm sure you wouldn't have any problems reselling it.

Do you offer a nonrefundable deposit? This would be a good idea if you don't.



kovachian -> [Deleted] (Jan. 31 2011 3:57:01)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 31 2011 3:57:38



M.S.A. -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 4:00:26)

kovachian , exactly.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 4:28:43)

I believe that the hannabachs are rather high tension for their rating compared to d'addarios.
He has specified a high tension string brand and is complaining about high tension?

Other than string height and scale length and string weight, there is not much a luthier can do to increase or decrease percieved tension. Actual tension for a particular set of strings will only be affected by scale length



Sean -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 4:36:59)

Take it back if its not dinged, I doubt you will be able to please him anyway.
Maybe he's got his eye on a Santos Hernandis on ebay[8|]



sean65 -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 6:15:01)

Break angle of the strings maybe? If the angle is too much at the nut or the bridge (or both) then that would create more tension.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 8:15:32)

Put a set of Luthier 20 on it first of all.

One thing noone has mentioned and its the most important: The guitars own tension also called pulsation.
This is a matter of the stiffness of the soundboard and the bracing together and its THE most difficult and THE most important factor in being a good builder. Its more important than sound. A guitar which is to stiff or soft doesnt work wel and you cant change it with changing string tension. A soft guitar is soft and a stiff guitar is stiff.

As a builder you need to gain experience when choosing and working your wood. Make a reference soundboard that you are not going to use. It has to be top level wood with a rosette installed. Use your thumbs, compare and weigh what you make.

I cannot say a word about the actual guitar because I havent tried it. So you need to judge it yourself. Compare to your other guitars and if possible to other makers guitars. If the pulsation, is not specially high, then its the player who has a problem. Did he ask for a specific soft, medium or hard tension guitar.
With respect of return policy... Thats a VERY difficult one. For someone only making 8 - 12 guitars a year, taking back an instrument can be really tough or even mean that you´re out of business..... (We are not Wall Mart or Carrefour) Taking back a guitar which you know is good and where you have a 25% non refundable deposit helps a lot. You´ll sell it again and earn some extra money for your trouble. If the guitar is really good, (and you have enough level of playing to judge that) then I think you have the right to refuse taking it back. The guy has payed you for your workhours. If not, he can go to GSI and pay 60 - 100% extra.

As a last thing... And it has to do with all the discussions of copying. Al pieces of wood are different. There can be a huge difference between one soundboard and another. Some has to be 1,9mm and others 2,5mm (Then thin one isnt nescessarily the best!!!!! it depends on weight) Every little stick you use for the bracing has the same problem. So building copys after plans doesnt help you. If the plan says 2,2mm, you might have to work something else depending on your wood. This you can only learn by building a lot of copys of the same plan and not by swithcing from one plan to another like many beginning builders do.



KMMI77 -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 9:34:52)

I think high or stiff tension can be good thing.

My conde is very high tension. It requires a different touch than any other guitars i have played but the high tension of the strings don't feel more difficult to play with once you relax with the guitar.

My Maldonado requires power to drive it and the pulsation is slower. My Conde can be played super softly and the sound comes out sounding full,powerful, separated, thick and deep. This is achieved via the stiffness Imo.

It's nice to have access to both guitars though.

I think it's good to be open and appreciative of the sound a guitar creates. Whatever it may be. Provided the setup and intonation is good, i don't see why your customer isn't getting a lot of enjoyment out of your guitar. They sound great in your videos to me.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 9:55:30)

KMMI77

Yes, ok, accepted and I trust that in your case its correct. BUT its your personal taste and nothing else. Trust me, I´ve learned that there are no golden rules in guitarbuilding and guitar clients. There are hundreds of opinions just like yours out there.



KMMI77 -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 10:09:59)

I agree Anders, They were just the thoughts that came to mind after reading this thread. I'm not intending to say one is better than the other. Every guitar offers something different.



Ruphus -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 10:20:50)

Pulsation and break angle as mentioned above appear like most plausible cause to me.
"Pulsation" in fact being a term that I chased for years, while trying to convey this criteria to fellow players in forums. ( With interestingly out of all meticulous calssical players with their experience of often times expensive instruments not even estimating what I was trying to describe.) Only lately on the foro I finally read that there in fact exists a term for the tactile perceived response of the resonating unit.

Anyway, pulsation should be what makes the difference between a soft or hard touch to the strings. With mainly the resonating units flexibility / stiffness determining named "pulsation", as well as specifying in how far break angle behind nut or saddle will matter.
As I suppose, the more stiff the construction the more shallow you want the break angle to be. With increased pliability of strings helping compensating for the constructions stiffness.

That thing named "pulsation" here in the foro to me is the dominant factor with finest guitars.
- With the sound in the end vastly bound to it in the same time.
First, in sight of responsiveness and secondly for musicality enabled through a great touch to the strings.

Ruphus



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 11:48:16)

quote:

tactile perceived response of the resonating unit.


That was a very fine description of a complex issue, Ruphus.[:)][:)]

Pulsation is more complicated than just stiffness. You can fing stiff guitars like the Conde that KMMI77 describes. (My Conde can be played super softly and the sound comes out sounding full,powerful, separated, thick and deep. ) and you can find stiff guitars which are a pig to play. Just slow, stiff and heavy. Its the difference between a good stiff guitar and a bad one.
So a good pulsation for some players is stiff with a fast realtively easy response.

With soft guitars happens the same. They can very responsive and allow you to play very hard on them if your tecnique is correct. (playing very close to the bridge) But you can also find soft guitars which are just dead. You push them and they dont respond. When you play them hard they get slow and it like digging in mud.

So whats the trick... Balance. and it counts for both the stiff and the soft guitar. The stiffness of the soundboard and the bracing has to work together. Putting a soft bracing on a stiff top doesnt do much good in my opinion and visa versa. Like many things in life, making compromises is often the wrong way to go.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 12:22:37)

OK, thanks everybody.
Anders, I am familiar with this idea of pulsation. Do you think it affects the left hand too??
I'm not building a copy and I treat each soundboard as an individual, thinning it according to how it feels, and then thinning the braces and the edge of the soundboard while playing it to fine tune it. This is a not-super-stiff top with a little runout.
Basically what I need to know is, how is this pulsation controlled? I purposely brace lightly under the bridge to try to control it. but when I've used bridge patches or stiffer bracing, or a stiffer top, the pulsation, to my hands, hasn't changed. All my guitars, to me, feel easy to play.

Once again, this is the LEFT hand we're talking about, not the right. Thanks.

Oh and I do offer a return policy for a full refund, less any damage to the guitar.

It looks like it's going to be taken advantage of because the client seems very discouraged, but I told him to keep it for a few days, try different strings, play it in a bit, etc...[:o]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 12:45:10)

A stiff guitar feels stiff in the left hand as well. But are you sure that its the guitar that has a problem? You say that your guitars feel easy to play. Well, this I trust.

Could it be the shape of the neck or the height of the strings at the nut. Some players are very picky with neck shapes. and to high strings at the nut is always annoying.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 13:10:33)

I'm not sure it's the guitar that has a problem, but I've got a problem either way. I just need to know how to build something SUPER soft in the future...
He has the problem even with a capo on.
It seems like nobody has any ideas that I didn't have already, except sean65's break angle. I've been reading about that and it has no physical effect on the tension of the strings. I don't know.
Sorry everybody you can ignore this thread now.



sig -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 16:50:53)

Andy,
I just thought of another thing that could possibly cause his/her discomfort with the left fretting hand. How tall are the frets? I noticed that on my Culpepper the frets seem a bt larger or taller than on my 1F Burguet. I like it much better but it took a bit to get used to the higher frets and I could understand how it might cause fatigue in the left hand until you get used to it.

Not sure its the cause but it something to explore...
Sig--



Ruphus -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 16:55:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

... break angle. I've been reading about that and it has no physical effect on the tension of the strings. I don't know.


Hey Deteresa,

If you don´t mind a friendly hair splitting for ponderings sake:
I doubt break angle to be having no physical effect. It would ignore the physical factor of inertia ( hope that´s the right term ) and friction.
With tightened / tensed whatsoever kind of strings or ropes yet the slightest difference of break angle seems to make quite a difference. Just ask mountaineers or sailors for example.
In fact each degree more in breakangle seems to result into considerably more of retention / fixation.
Evident also with the typical fixing of bass strings at the bridge. There relatively little of break angles suffices for keeping heavily pulling strings in place.

I even remember an advice according to which one should ideally roll up the strings on the tuners roller laterally ( not to towards gear heads center ) in order to decrease pull on the gear / help staying in tune. ( I know, the functioning principle of tuners gear is described as being linear with pull-to-fixation ratio; but still ...)
Consequently, considering an effect of retention at much more subtle measure of break angle like with the wrap on tuners roller; yet, with an alleged effect of encreased fixation which again appears plausible to me.

With all that, I would think that just little difference in break angle behind nut or saddle should be good for perceivable difference in how the excessive string behind nut / saddle can either accomodate or lessen strings stretching reserve / pliability leeway.


quote:

... So whats the trick... Balance. and it counts for both the stiff and the soft guitar. ...


Interesting info to learn from*; thank you, Anders!

Ruphus

* As I would had imagined softness to be of benefit on principle ( equalling it with response ), it is educating to hear that it can also be equalling weakness and lag.



Ruphus -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 17:03:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sig

Andy,
I just thought of another thing that could possibly cause his/her discomfort with the left fretting hand. How tall are the frets? I noticed that on my Culpepper the frets seem a bt larger or taller than on my 1F Burguet. I like it much better but it took a bit to get used to the higher frets and I could understand how it might cause fatigue in the left hand until you get used to it.

Not sure its the cause but it something to explore...
Sig--


Just days ago, there was a thread about fret hight on a classical guitar forum.
Everyone agreed that we prefer taller ones ( to the degree before it gets too high / flattening notes ).
In the same time I thought to recall how people in the past used to prefer smaller fret wire, conisdering it as easier to play on.
The latter eventually because of the reason you mention / initial playing difficulties until one gets used to the unfamiliar fret dimension.

It could be the background for this thread, indeed.

Ruphus



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 31 2011 17:50:21)

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Florian -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 18:31:39)

Nealf !! makes me very happy to see you here amigo [:D]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 31 2011 18:41:07)

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Andy Culpepper -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 20:13:17)

Hi guys,
Once again the neck, string spacing and nut width were customized to what he is used to and he has no problem with those things.

The angle of the head and break angle over the saddle are completely standard after studying many Spanish and non Spanish guitars.

The frets: this could be somewhat legitimate. The fretwire I use is .041" or 1 mm high (and some are filed slightly lower of course)
It's definitely not the highest you can go but it's not super-low. I find these to be much more comfortable than super-low.

We have decided to just lower the action a bit and see how that goes. (probably the most obvious thing) He's also trying low tension strings.
The problem I see with that is that I saw this guitar as VERY lively, loud and responsive so lowering the action might cause it to buzz too much.
I'll let you guys know how it turns out.



at_leo_87 -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 20:44:31)

quote:

All my guitars, to me, feel easy to play.


you may be too good of a player for your own good. [:D]

if you can, have another player play it and see what he thinks.

good luck!



Doitsujin -> RE: Help needed - string tension (Jan. 31 2011 20:52:19)

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