Andy Culpepper -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 6 2010 23:33:18)
It's about more than lots of notes and weird chords. Something about the chord progressions and the use of rhythm scratches an itch for me. It's very fresh but rooted in traditional stuff. This is where flamenco needs to go I think... it's the same thing Paco did, taking old ideas and putting a new spin on them. And it still sounds 100% Flamenco. I think the combination of HIGHLY sophisticated rhythm and technique with the earthiness of the tuning and ideas is really genius. And if you actually listen you'll notice that these guys use quite a bit more space than the old school players that were just blasting notes at you 100% of the time in Bulerias.
BarkellWH -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 6:10:10)
quote:
Depends on what "taking it further" means?
Does that mean "making it better"?
Is playing as many notes as you can in a piece with the weirdest chords you can think of cool these days in Flamenco?
I would answer this question: No, "taking it further" does not necessarily mean "making it better." It can, but it also may not. That some consider it cool these days does not necessarily make it "more flamenco." That some think the faster the picado the better (even when in compas), represents their opinion, but it does not mean it is better or "more" flamenco. Speed can be used as a gimmick, a parlor trick performed to "amaze" one's audience. It does not necessarily equate with "better."
Cheers,
Bill
orsonw -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 7:54:49)
I think one of the things that characterises Caño Roto is their very strong compas. It is playing that is informed by accompaniment.
Despite their technical speed and solo abilites, above all the Caño Roto players are some of the best and most sought after accompanists, particularly for dancers.
Here is an interview with Ramon Jimenez which explains a little about the Caño Roto history and concepts.
XXX -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 10:10:17)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M That guy IS cool there...but that's not "new". It's a mix of old style with some old Niño Josele thrown in IMO.
Interesting. Would you like to point me to some recordings of what you think served as an influence or is identical in the style of the compas or falseta in that video? Im pretty sure i have never heard that strumming patterns he plays there, so a proof of that being "not new" would certainly add something to my knowledge.
Ron.M -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 12:29:22)
What I mean by "new", Deniz is "novel", "original", "unlike other players".
In all fields of music you get a few people that just come out of nowhere and grab you with a genuinely "new" sound or "approach".
For instance take the catalog of "The Monkees" [:D]
Never once did they play any Beatles stuff or any of their riffs.
ie..No one could point out a similar song or riff that they copied.
So are they "original"?[:D]
Yet out of all the zillions of Beatles copy and sub-copy bands, there slowly came a stream of exciting bands out of nowhere with a truly original sound that owed nothing to that style.
That's original.
You can fit your own notes into the phrasing or style of other players and chunk up the rhythm a bit...but it's still basically the same IMO.
There are heaps of stunning young players around, some who have yet to even make an album. Lots play their "own" stuff but very few have drawn people's attention like say, Diego del Morao.
When players "put you in mind of XYZ", then it's not original in my book anyway.
So although that guy is a terrific player, he just sounds to me like others of his generation and nothing especially exceptional that makes him stand out.
cheers,
Ron
XXX -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 12:40:46)
Hm ok i think its obvious how deep your understanding of modern flamenco, or the playing style of the younger generations is.
Arash -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 13:40:05)
Deniz, i know what you mean! [;)]
these cano roto guys have really nice strumming patterns (compas variations), check this one out with Jesus and focus on right hand
these young kids obviously learned lot from Jesus and also mixed their own ideas
Estevan -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 13:55:48)
quote:
Here is an interview with Ramon Jimenez which explains a little about the Caño Roto history and concepts.
Thanks for that, Orson (and Norman, for the translation!) - I thought the part where he talks about the relatonship with dance was interesting, and clearly an important factor in the development of the style.
And at the end, this inspiring reminder of why we do it:
"The guitar is very tough and unrewarding. It takes so much and gives nothing in return." [&:]
Ron.M -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 14:13:44)
quote:
Hm ok i think its obvious how deep your understanding of modern flamenco, or the playing style of the younger generations is.
Well Deniz, Arash was kind enough to explain it to me in detail, so I'm pretty clued-up now! [:D]
quote:
yes. its all about playing as many notes and chords and as fast as possible. its all about showing off. these guys just play to show off and want to be cool. this is modern flamenco, very simple.
cheers,
Ron
orsonw -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 14:26:51)
quote:
these cano roto guys have really nice strumming patterns (compas variations)
I think I remember Kris saying that El Entri showed him very different ways of playing compas, that to Kris seemed almost 'wrong'. The young American in Madrid, Ewan also mentioned this but left the foro before he could explain further. If I am remembering correctly, maybe Kris or anyone else could explain technically what is different about the compas used in Caño Roto?
It's a shame the Caño roto guys don't seem to be making any more recordings. Maybe these young students will develop and do something. I think Joni Jimenez has real potential, I already really enjoy what he's doing now.
Arash -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 14:36:28)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
quote:
Hm ok i think its obvious how deep your understanding of modern flamenco, or the playing style of the younger generations is.
Well Deniz, Arash was kind enough to explain it to me in detail, so I'm pretty clued-up now! [:D]
quote:
yes. its all about playing as many notes and chords and as fast as possible. its all about showing off. these guys just play to show off and want to be cool. this is modern flamenco, very simple.
cheers,
Ron
you are welcome [:)] - i know what you want to hear to stop grumbling all day long [:D]
if you want a simple explanation for traditional too, let me know [;)][:D]
Arash -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 14:40:55)
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
quote:
these cano roto guys have really nice strumming patterns (compas variations)
I think I remember Kris saying that El Entri showed him very different ways of playing compas that to Kris seemed almost 'wrong'. The young American in Madrid, Ewan also mentioned this but left the foro before he could explain further. If I am remembering correctly, maybe Kris or anyone else could explain technically what is different about the compas used in Caño Roto?
It's a shame the Caño roto guys don't seem to be making any more recordings. Maybe these young students will develop and do something. I think Joni Jimenez has real potential, I already really enjoy what he's doing now.
Maybe Gerardo could do another CD in few years and include all these young players [:)] - lets see
orsonw -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 15:01:58)
quote:
Maybe Gerardo could do another CD in few years and include all these young players
Yes and in the mean time Manuel Valencia and Diego del Morao coming soon, I hope.
Ron.M -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 18:54:01)
quote:
if you want a simple explanation for traditional too, let me know
I'll save that Arash....Doit has already given a complete explanation...[:D]
Now..THIS is what I call original! [:D]
Seriously!
cheers,
Ron
por medio -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 21:09:26)
In my humble opinion, while the Cano Rotto guys in the vidoes are pretty damn cool, I wouldn't go as far as those guys were "innovating" flamenco. Well not yet anyway!
I mean the strumming and compas, haven't they been doing it like that for the last ten years?
As Mark said it felt more akin to "teenagers impressing the ladies" at times - especially those fast picados!(mind you I wouldn't mind having that to impress the birds).
But that guy with a long curly hairdo, HE's something else though.
orsonw -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 7 2010 22:03:11)
quote:
In my humble opinion, while the Cano Rotto guys in the vidoes are pretty damn cool, I wouldn't go as far as those guys were "innovating" flamenco. Well not yet anyway!
Maybe there's some confusion here.
When we are talking about Caño Roto players as innovators we are talking about El Nani, El Viejin, Ramon Jimenez, Jesus de Rosario, David Cerreduela etc.. You can hear them on solo records or accompanying cante, Montse Cortes, Guadiana etc.. or live with the top dancers. Caño Roto has had it's own identified style of flamenco for many years already.
These guys in the above video (Joni Jimenez and Aquilino Jimenez) are teenage students of El Entri from Caño Roto. They play in the Caño Roto style, for example in the 'duo' video you can hear pieces of El Viejin's bulerias. They're the young blood. Thankfully Flamenco is still alive and the Spanish will keep innovating and leaving us foreign aficionados confused and trying to keep up!
Ricardo -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 0:08:40)
quote:
But i don't remember El Viejin saying that, anyway...
6:43
Ricardo -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 0:12:45)
quote:
This video from 0:53 to 1:43... if thats not ultra cool then i dont know
It's cool for sure. But the ideas come from Paco's Soniquete and the compasing too, and a bit from Vicente's Mandaito. Nothing wrong with it at all, the thing for me is the whole "school" concept, as if it is a unique separate entity such as the "moron school" or "jerez school" of playing. I am just not into lumping a bunch of individual players all together I guess. For me Jesus de Rosario vs Viejin grab me in totally different ways stylistically.
por medio -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 0:13:56)
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
quote:
In my humble opinion, while the Cano Rotto guys in the vidoes are pretty damn cool, I wouldn't go as far as those guys were "innovating" flamenco. Well not yet anyway!
Maybe there's some confusion here.
When we are talking about Caño Roto players as innovators we are talking about El Nani, El Viejin, Ramon Jimenez, Jesus de Rosario, David Cerreduela etc.. You can hear them on solo records or accompanying cante, Montse Cortes, Guadiana etc.. or live with the top dancers. Caño Roto has had it's own identified style of flamenco for many years already.
These guys in the above video (Joni Jimenez and Aquilino Jimenez) are teenage students of El Entri from Caño Roto. They play in the Caño Roto style, for example in the 'duo' video you can hear pieces of El Viejin's bulerias. They're the young blood. Thankfully Flamenco is still alive and the Spanish will keep innovating and leaving us foreign aficionados confused and trying to keep up!
Ah I thought some were talking about those young ones...
No I don't have any doubt about Jimenez, El Viejin, Rosario and co. being the innovators [:)]
Ricardo -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 0:33:24)
quote:
What date is the rito vid?
Enrique De Melchor was born in 1951, Paco in 1947, so Paco is only 4 years older than Enrique.
1971-72. See for yourself, I would say he looks younger then he is if he is 21 here, I was thinking he was like 18 or so, sorry my fault:
Still I feel PDL seemed more artistically mature at this same time. Anyone can load a recording of El Nani with the date, and it could clear things up.
Ricardo
jg7238 -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 0:42:25)
Great playing by Enrique De Melchor.
NormanKliman -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 7:53:05)
quote:
Still I feel PDL seemed more artistically mature at this same time.
Paco was and still is head and shoulders above everyone else. Of course that's just an opinion, but all the guitarists he's compared to seem to agree. In many interviews they've expressed their awe in terms such as, "He's an alien," or "He must have two hearts," etc. Here's an example from El Entri's MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/elentri):
"Si los médicos conocieron el campo de la medicina, como Paco de Lucia conoce la guitarra, no existirían las enfermedades"
"If doctors knew as much about medicine as Paco de Lucía knows about the guitar, there wouldn't be any illnesses."
IMO, when we talk about the most important guitarists in the history of flamenco, there are four names: Ramón Montoya, Niño Ricardo, Sabicas and Paco de Lucía. Others like Tomate, Enrique de Melchor, Serranito, Manolo Sanlúcar, Gerardo Núñez, etc. are undeniably great but not quite at the same level so as to be included in that list of four names. Something to think about when speculating on the influences and development of the Caño Roto players.
quote:
Anyone can load a recording of El Nani with the date, and it could clear things up.
I don't know of any recordings of El Nani and there doesn't even seem to be much information available on the man. I don't know what he looks like, but I'm pretty sure this is him:
Arash -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 8:02:04)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
But i don't remember El Viejin saying that, anyway...
6:43
ah ok, thanks. it's been a long time since i watched the documentary with subtitles [:D]
XXX -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 9:09:07)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo It's cool for sure. But the ideas come from Paco's Soniquete and the compasing too, and a bit from Vicente's Mandaito.
The only thing that i found comes close to the compasing, i hope you mean of the strumming part, was a Bulerias vid by Antonio Rey, but that of course doesnt cound coz hes cano roto too. Again i would he happy for any snippets of audio or video where i can find the influence for this Joni Jimenez' video. The falseta part i have no idea what could be the influence on that.
"If doctors knew as much about medicine as Paco de Lucía knows about the guitar, there wouldn't be any illnesses." Thats hilarious. Maybe Viejin should stop guitar and start medicine.
Ricardo -> RE: Canorotto Bulerias Duo (Sep. 8 2010 20:01:23)
quote:
Again i would he happy for any snippets of audio or video where i can find the influence for this Joni Jimenez' video.
