RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Full Version)

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kovachian -> [Deleted] (Jul. 15 2010 15:21:09)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 15 2010 15:23:39



kovachian -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 15 2010 15:23:50)

quote:

does anybody know if the student models are french polished?
They are not but trust me when I this, they don't need it. Navarro's nitro finishes are fairly durable and micro-thin, as in, less-than-a-single-sheet-of-paper kind of thin.



at_leo_87 -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 15 2010 22:38:21)

thanks ngiorgio and kovachian for the info.
im sold. just got to save up now...

apak, let us know what you think of the guitar when you get it.



gasbag -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 11:30:26)

I have been lurking for some time and feel I should chip in. After reading all the recommendations for FN, I ordered a Blanca. It was sent all the way from the USA to New Zealand. Can't be more pleased with the playability and sound, I don't play the Yamaha GC171SF anymore.

Then I discovered cracks in the lacquer, on the top and back and along the heel. The vendor says it is how it was most probably mishandled in transit or sudden changes in humidity and temperature. But I have had guitars sent from abroad with no problems. More cracks have developed. I keep the room temperate and humidity at 16-21deg C and 48-55% sat.

I must have been very unlucky to get one with defects. What is one to do? It is too expensive to send it back. I guess, I've to live with it. I thought I would be very unhappy with this but I play it almost everyday and it brings a smile to my face, with enough practice, I may be the man in "Beware the man with the ugly drum".

gasbag



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gasbag -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 11:31:54)

Front, L lower



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gasbag -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 11:34:12)

Front, Left Upper



gasbag -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 11:49:13)

Heel



gasbag -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 11:50:44)

Label



Ramon Amira -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 14:15:49)

Lots and lots of people have reported cracking and buckling problems with Francisco Navarro guitars, probably due to the change in humidity.



ngiorgio -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 16:55:32)

quote:

Lots and lots of people have reported cracking and buckling problems with Francisco Navarro guitars, probably due to the change in humidity.


Where have these reports come from?

In my experience, the type of finish cracking shown in the above photos usually comes from extreme swings in temperature and/or humidity, where the wood and the finish expand and contract at different rates.

Gasbag, did the guitar develope these finish cracks after you took delivery, or where they visible immediately?



kovachian -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 17:12:41)

Cracks are an unfortunate reality for guitars of every single price strata. But, I would like clarification on the definition of "lots and lots" as well as supporting proof for this highly speculative claim. The fact that I've owned more than one FN with nary a problem may be an uncommon experience, but my gut tells me that's not the case.



ngiorgio -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 19:26:10)

This Navarro Estudio negra on Ebay has sold.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220637732778&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Did it go to a forum member?



Ramon Amira -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 16 2010 21:02:37)

I'm a member of several classical and flamenco guitar forums, and I have read a number of reports of Francisco Navarro guitars cracking. Maybe "lots and lots" is an overstatement, but with something like that, when you hear it more than once it just seems like lots and lots. Also I have read accounts of guitars made by other Paracho luthiers cracking and I probably bundled it all together. I distinctly remember reading a comment by a luthier about how he gets many cracked guitars in for repair that were made in Paracho, including Navarros and others. In any case, I said that it would probably be due to the change in humidity, not to any defect in workmanship. Navarro guitars have a good reputation, which I myself have stated lots and lots of times on this forum. [:)]



Ramon Amira -> [Deleted] (Jul. 16 2010 21:59:08)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 28 2012 13:13:34



ngiorgio -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 17 2010 0:32:49)

quote:

I'm a member of several classical and flamenco guitar forums, and I have read a number of reports of Francisco Navarro guitars cracking. Maybe "lots and lots" is an overstatement, but with something like that, when you hear it more than once it just seems like lots and lots. Also I have read accounts of guitars made by other Paracho luthiers cracking and I probably bundled it all together. I distinctly remember reading a comment by a luthier about how he gets many cracked guitars in for repair that were made in Paracho, including Navarros and others. In any case, I said that it would probably be due to the change in humidity, not to any defect in workmanship. Navarro guitars have a good reputation, which I myself have stated lots and lots of times on this forum.


I guess that's all the proof we need.[;)]



ngiorgio -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 17 2010 0:38:49)

quote:

As a dealer I find this unethical, as it violates the traditional distributor/dealer relationship, and I don't see how any dealer who is buying his guitars from Ron Hudson can possibly hope to sell any, since he can't possibly match those prices. But in any case, for Foro members it is a price bonanza.


Yeah, he is screwing any of the dealers that are buying FN guitars from him. I suspect that in the current economy, RH needs to move his inventory. Don't know how true this is but it was my understanding that FN sends a number of guitars to RH each month. If RH keeps buying and they don't move, he has got to figure out a way to get rid of them.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 17 2010 3:26:49)

quote:

I suspect that in the current economy, RH needs to move his inventory. Don't know how true this is but it was my understanding that FN sends a number of guitars to RH each month. If RH keeps buying and they don't move, he has got to figure out a way to get rid of them.


Yes, I'm sure you're exactly right. That's probably what's happening. But of course the traditional way for a distributor who has inventory he can't move fast enough is for him to cut his prices to his dealers, and let THEM sell at a lower price. But anyway, things like this are sure good for guitarists.



at_leo_87 -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 17 2010 23:28:28)

gasbag, im assuming you got the student model? sorry about your cracks, but honestly, they dont even look too bad. congratulations on your new guitar!



gasbag -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 18 2010 7:20:17)

at_leo_87,

Yes, I got the Student Model. The cracks is only in the finish and I don't think it affects the sound.


ngiorgio,

Yes, the cracks were already present when I received the guitar. Whether there were already there before dispatch, I don't know. And I think a few more has appeared. Me thinks the wood were not properly seasoned. But the guitar has stayed in tuned better than my other guitars. Go figure.

It is Winter here in New Zealand and I have the heating on 24/7. I try and keep the humidity and temperature as stable as possible, I hope the FN Blanca doesn't implode on me.

The person(not RH) who sold me the guitar claims to be a distributor in the US as well and gets them from FN 6 at a time. I contacted FN by email using google translate and he quoted US$550 for a Student Model but I am too scared to go to Paracho to collect it.

I was going to cross over the border to Mexico when I visit San Diego in October but everyone says it is too dangerous. Can anyone suggest some guitar stores to visit in San Diego - thanks.

gasbag



ngiorgio -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 18 2010 15:07:40)

Gasbag,

I am not to familiar with the west coast of the USA but Blue Guitar in San Diego might be a neat place to visit. http://theblueguitar.com/

You may want to consider an in case humidifier during the heating season. When I lived in the Northeast part of the country, all my guitars had them. These devices are a bit more effective in maintaining some humidity inside the guitar. There are many available. Inexpensive and effective. Here is one which has been artound for a long time. http://www.dampits.com/



at_leo_87 -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 18 2010 17:05:46)

i dont think the woods were not properly seasoned if it's just the finish.

ngiorgio's humidifying suggestion is a great idea. there's also plenty of diy solutions that work just as well and are cheaper. they're all just expensive sponges, sometimes in a fancy container.

if you need a new case, check this one out. it comes with a hygrometer and two humidifying pods (sponges in fancy cases.) http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=2520



kovachian -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 18 2010 19:08:02)

Case humidifiers can work okay I suppose, but they seem like a tiny bandage for a bigger problem in some cases. Instead of humidifying just the guitar but no other precious wooden objects in the vicinity, I humidify everything in one shot with a room humidifier. The one I use has an adjustable humidistat and keeps everything regulated at 50% humidity all year round.

That's just for keeping the instruments at home of course, those who travel will clearly want a case humidifier for that purpose.



Ron.M -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 18 2010 19:44:20)

Kov,

Residing on a fairly small island in the Temperate Zone, I must admit, I've never really considered humidity...

Humidity doesn't happen in the UK!

We would love if it did because a comment about the weather is the number 1 greeting you exchange with the passing person you vaguely know, so we would welcome another variable to toss in.

(Unless, of course, you are at the bus stop, then you sigh and look at your watch and complain about the bus services.)

(These are actually very handy tips for anyone wishing to visit the UK, otherwise folk will think you are just foreign and weird. [:D])

quote:

Instead of humidifying just the guitar but no other precious wooden objects in the vicinity, I humidify everything in one shot with a room humidifier.


LOL...it makes me think of some poor guy walking around in Arizona and suddenly falling to the ground and folk calling the emergency services 'cos his skull has just split with the heat and dryness.

Egad...what a thought! [:-]

cheers,

Ron



kovachian -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 18 2010 22:37:03)

That's right, my skull is solid wood and I need to prevent it from cracking! Not that anything will fall out, but it's unsightly nevertheless.



GuitarVlog -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 19 2010 14:27:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic
As a dealer I find this unethical, as it violates the traditional distributor/dealer relationship, and I don't see how any dealer who is buying his guitars from Ron Hudson can possibly hope to sell any, since he can't possibly match those prices. But in any case, for Foro members it is a price bonanza.


PC, I think Ron is just matching what other dealers in Texas have been doing. I'm not talking about Tom Nunez (La Falseta) or GSI. But I have seen and heard of other small dealers cutting the prices on Navarro's guitars online and in-store.

Yes, it's good for players. But a lot of players have still been hurting in their wallets too.



lsnyman -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 19 2010 16:37:09)

YOu will not be sorry for buying this guitar. I have a signed Concert Flamenco model Cedar top with Pegs and it is a wonderful guitar for the price. Ron is a great guy and a very accomplished player.
The guitar sometimes sounds better than my expensive Spanish made Hermanos Pena.
I can highly recommend Navarro guitars, In fact my teacher has it right now playing concerts in Mexico. Go for it.



apak -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 24 2010 19:43:34)

So my Francisco Navarro Concert flamenco arrived on Thursday.

Firstly, it sounds great. I don't have a discerning ear for what makes a fantastic flamenco guitar, but playing this one I can at least very immediately tell the very major difference between an authentic flamenco sound compared to the best I ever could have pulled off with my classical guitar.

On a second note, I am NOT overly impressed with this guitar's overall finishing and aesthetics quality.

Before I go on, two disclaimers 1) I am comparing it to my Yamaha NCX-2000R Classical guitar, which is hand-made in Japan (before you jump all over me, I am aware of the complications of "handmade" claims made my major brands, however, Yamaha does not advertise their guitars as handmade in general, unless to a great degree, it actually is. 2) the Yamaha NCX-2000R cost me about 3x what I paid for the FN flamenco, and it is just about the top end when it comes to commercial brand classical guitars

Back to FN's finish - most the blemishes are not obvious and you find them with closer scrutiny, but they are there:

As soon as I took it out of the packaging, I noticed small indentations near few of the frets in the ebony fingerboard. I am guessing these are marks from the edge of the hammer to place in the fret bars, which could have been avoided with greater care of the builder.

There are also two small dots in two places on the top wood finish which seem to be foreign particles trapped in the lacquer.

Looking through the sound hole, there is some glue residue at the attachments.

At the very edge of the bridge, there is small amounts of glue residue (<1mm) on the top wood.

The worst blemish is on the top wood at the very edge of the sound hole which is a 2 mm spot that simply did not get covered by polish.

Other than that, I don't see any major defects. There is NO warping, NO cracks, and the neck is as nice and straight as it could be.

And as I said before, this guitar sounds fantastic. I hope people reading this put the criticism I have of the small blemishes in perspective; For $1000, I got a muy flamenco hand-made guitar and case, with shipping and taxes included.

Sorry, I don't a camera around to attach images.



at_leo_87 -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 25 2010 19:02:13)

congratulations on your new guitar.

it would help if we can see a picture of these cosmetic flaws. through your description, some of these sound scary.

how did you pay? credit card?



Ron.M -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 25 2010 19:10:33)

quote:

some of these sound scary.


Not to me.

Depends if you want to PLAY the guitar or sit and LOOK at it. (IMO)

cheers,

Ron



apak -> RE: Ordering a Francisco Navarro Guitar - is this a good deal? (Jul. 25 2010 21:28:05)

I wouldn't say there is anything "scary" about them. I wish the blemishes weren't there, but they are not big enough to bother me or motivate me to send it back to him for an exchange or refund.

Here are some images. Most of them are too small to even capture with camera, but it gives you a better idea: look at the very edge of the sound hole between the E and B strings.



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