diy dance floors (Full Version)

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at_leo_87 -> diy dance floors (May 14 2010 21:37:03)

ok, so here are the dance floors i made. nothing fancy but i hope they give some ideas for those who plan to make their own.

so i started off with cheap 1/2 inch plywood. i didn't bother getting anything nice because i didn't want to spend too much and these things look like a battlefield after only two dance sessions.

here's the big one. i used hinges to attach it but as you can see, it's not that flush, but it's not bad enough that the dancer would even notice.



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at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 14 2010 21:38:22)

here's the smaller one. i used velcro to put this one together.



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at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 14 2010 21:41:33)

now here are the shock absorbing rubber mats i was talking about. and you can see the velcro.



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at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 14 2010 21:43:33)

i rounded the sides so there wouldn't be a hard edge.



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Exitao -> RE: diy dance floors (May 14 2010 22:29:57)

In the first one, you say the hinges get in the way. I can't tell from the pic, did you try notching the wood to make space for the hinges?

A chisel or strong sharp knife (like a drywall knife or a wood carving knife) should work fine.

The shock absorbing mats - are you using them to muffle sound, or prevent transference to the floor below? Or just protect the floor under the plywood?

I only ask because I would have thought that a portable pista would want to amplify the sounds of zapateo.

If it's just to protecting the floor, you could go to a carpet/flooring place an see about buying some end-of-roll underlay. It could be cheaper and the underlay used for hardwood flooring would be less... bouncy.

Are you using a spray-on adhesive to attach the mat?



at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 14 2010 22:47:02)

the hinges don't really get in the way. it's just the way hinges work, it makes one side slightly higher than the other. i compensated for this by alternating which side got the higher side. it's hard to explain. ideally the hinges should be on the bottom, not in between but it wouldn't be able to fold if it was on the bottom due to the rubber mats.

i used the shock absorbing mats so the board wouldn't slip, to protect the floor underneath, but most importantly, to give some shock absorption for the dancer's body, especially the knees. it's the next best thing when a dance studio with sprung floors isn't available.

the 1/2 inch plywood is actually really loud. we didn't even have to mic up the floor, it just bled into the microphones we used for guitar and palmas. so it's probably not suitable for practice actually, more for performance. i'm going to make another one with 1/4 wood and see if it's quieter.

the loudness of the wood combined with the shock absorption makes it a lot easier for the dancer to perform without getting tired.

i used a dab of gorilla glue for each of the little "puzzle" pieces. i'm sure any all purpose glue would work, it's just what i had.



Exitao -> RE: diy dance floors (May 15 2010 0:29:18)

So it was actually for ergonomic factors. Interesting. I'm a fan if all kinds of DIY.

However, look around at various wooden doors, even folding closet doors and you'll see how a knife or chisel can make your hinges work a little better (or, even better, a router if you have access, which it looks like you do).
Although I think your velcro is probably easier.

I think your rounded edges is a good idea. It looks better and they will last longer and be less likely to splinter; which would be a literal pain when it comes to transporting them.

I suspect 1/4" ply won't last very long for your purposes and wouldn't recommend going thinner than 5/8" I was wondering why you didn't try a 3/4" ply.

For deadening sound, that's where the hardwood floor underlay would probably be the most help.

You are using two full sheets of 4x8 plywood? Or what are settling on for the smaller pistes?



Ailsa -> RE: diy dance floors (May 15 2010 1:59:21)

Looks like you did a nice job - even rounding the corners! You are quite a craftsman - a careful piece of work. How does Lauren find dancing on it? And what are the dimensions of the finished floor?



at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 15 2010 4:33:37)

i'm too lazy to get up and look at a door but i think i know what you're talking about now exitao. i'll check it out for future floors.

i have to think of an easier way to transport them. i think if i use velcro, i can section it into four pieces instead of only two.

i was going to use 3/4 but instead, chose 1/2 because the girl said she needed to carry it around a lot. i thought i was making a compromise between portability and strength but when we tested it out, found out that 1/2 inch is actually bordering overkill. the next one im making is for an older lady with bad knees, so i'm going to try 1/4.

for the big one, i used a 4x8 sheet and cut it down to two 2x6 strips making the whole dance floor 4x6. the small ones are 3x4 which is plenty for practice, i think. it's much larger than other commercial dance floors (which are usually made for tap and are way too weak).

lauren has one bad knee. while she dances on it, she doesn't notice any pain. she doesn't like doing footwork too loud because it's too much for her knee but with this board, i was almost having a little difficulty keeping up with her.

another dancer told me that this board exaggerates all the sound of the feet so it makes it sound like she's better than she actually is. so that's why i think it might not be good for practice but more for performance. i hope the 1/4 won't be as loud.



Exitao -> RE: diy dance floors (May 15 2010 10:51:39)

I thought it looked like 2' rips, but I wasn't sure of the length or the camera angle. 2'x6' makes sense.


For ease of transportation you could try making it out of 3 pieces in a configuration like this =| if you can take my meaning. Probably fit better on a dolly or luggage stroller thingy too.




I haven't done much work with 1/4' ply (only ever used 1/4" paper-face for forming curbs and architectural concrete jobs), but I've had to pack enough to think that it always feels really flimsy.

I would be concerned that with the kind of padding you're using underneath a 1/4" piece of ply, it's going to crack under the zapateo.
I could be wrong, you'll just have to put one together and get someone to go ape on it to find out.
Maybe depends on the girl too.

If it is too fragile, you could try a different underlay, without so much give the ply should hold up better, but you'll lose your ergonomic benefit.


I'm also unsure of how thickness should affect volume. So I'll be interested to hear about your results and with the 1/4" material.



at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 15 2010 12:33:30)

quote:


I'm also unsure of how thickness should affect volume. So I'll be interested to hear about your results and with the 1/4" material.


i can't really explain it but i can imagine it in my head. oh boy, there's just so much in my head that never makes it to the outside world. [8|]

i've been procrastinating but i'm going to go make it right now.

i still haven't figured a way to incorporate sound ports. [:-]



XXX -> RE: diy dance floors (May 15 2010 12:40:15)

Dude, thats cool! I personally like the click sound of thin wood plates, coz makes the sound of the feet more seperated than rather just elefant clomping (my english is not so good). Now im curious though, what do you do for a living? Something with wood?



at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 15 2010 16:31:16)

quote:

Dude, thats cool! I personally like the click sound of thin wood plates, coz makes the sound of the feet more seperated than rather just elefant clomping (my english is not so good). Now im curious though, what do you do for a living? Something with wood?


yeah, i know exactly what you mean. i like when the footwork is sharp.
i've actually been through a number of jobs and haven't settled on anything that i really enjoyed doing. i dont know how i live. [:-]
i just work with wood as a hobby and i make random things once in awhile for some gas/beer/entertainment money.



veet -> RE: diy dance floors (May 16 2010 12:44:17)

other things I've seen done well-
1. use 1x3 or 1x2 battens underneath the ply as a frame (also creates airspace under the board.) Just use short drywall screws to fasten the ply to battens, makes a smooth and even joint. This means carrying a Makita to gigs, but is well worth it.

2. for durability, use 1/2 inch MDO (medium density overlay) instead of plywood. It's flatter, harder, and stands up to tons of abuse. Costs more but will last forever.



mark indigo -> RE: diy dance floors (May 18 2010 4:33:32)

quote:

the shock absorbing rubber mats i was talking about


what are these? where can you get them from?

how many hinges have you got joining the two pieces of board together?

also, how do you round the edges of the boards?

We have a 4' by 8' sheet of 3/4" ply in our kitchen, laid on top of stone tile floor.
It's so loud i use a small amp to hear myself over the sound of just one dancer!

It's also really heavy to move anywhere, and the edges have just got some gaffer tape on them. I would like to make/get something more portable.



Exitao -> RE: diy dance floors (May 18 2010 6:51:09)

The shock absorbers can be found in stores that supply exercise equipment, maybe business/contractor oriented hardware stores too (they are sometimes used in workplaces where people have to stand in one place for a long time). Maybe Leo got his in a different place...

From the roundness of the edge, I guess he used a router.

If you can't get access to a router, you could use a skil saw and adjust the angle of the blade to bevel the edge (not as pretty, but more functional than nothing and can help with the trip hazard aspect). Of course this makes a sharper edge for carrying.



at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 18 2010 7:32:21)

cool suggestions, veet. thanks!
i don't know about a harder material though. plywood is as hard it is. we have to factor in ergonomics.

we just did a show yesterday with the 1/2 dance floor and the sound filled up the auditorium and was louder than the guitar amp.

i also finished the 1/4 one. we haven't tested it yet but i bet it's going to be just fine. now i got some tap dancers interested in buying one.

mark,
i got the rubber things here. i think they're really necessary. i hear a lot of stories about dancers having to get knee surgery and having to give up altogether because of knee problems.

http://www.sportsauthority.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2927171&cp=3077568.3077629.2049960.714802&parentPage=family

it's 12mm thick and covers 12 sq. ft. these things come in various sizes, prices, and thicknesses. check with your local sports store.

i used four hinges to connect them. but hinges come apart, and i'm starting to think velcro is a much better option.

for the edges, exitao is correct, i used a router. if you want to waste time and give your arms a work out, you can just use a sanding block and sandpaper.
[:D]



cathulu -> RE: diy dance floors (May 18 2010 18:58:33)

OK, here is another DIY floor using Ikea "Tundra" floor - a cheap laminate, but the strongest most durable laminate flooring they sell. I glued it with contact cement to a 1/4" hardboard. I used a table saw and a circular saw to trim the edges. Both pieces are about 2 feet by 4 feet. From one package of Tundra flooring, I have enough left over to make another 2 feet by 4 feet section.

My plan is to join it together with Velcro as Anthony suggested.

I didn't bother with a bottom pad because my wife practices on a carpet, and for the fact of the fatal flaw...

The fatal flaw: The Ikea flooring cannot take the nails on the bottom of flamenco shoes and it chips - as there is no real wood, it will look awful in no time. My wife will tape the bottom of her shoes to use it. I will take a photo of my wife and I using it one day soon... :)

But as a proof of concept, it works very well. I think my next floor will be the same concept, except I will use a hardwood floor, probably 1/4" of wood on laminate to keep it light, it will be plenty durable then, it will get dented and marked but at least it will be all wood on the surface.



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cathulu -> RE: diy dance floors (May 18 2010 19:04:52)

Here is a side view...



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cathulu -> RE: diy dance floors (May 18 2010 19:07:10)

Here is the underside...



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at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (May 19 2010 5:09:18)

nice work, chris! the wood looks pretty. what's hardboard? is it that cork like material? that's a good idea.

don't they install that under floors sometimes for sound and heat insulation and for some shock absorption?



cathulu -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 19 2010 22:52:01)

Just an update on the floor durability... was thinking about this and Anthony's recent post in the luthier's section reminded me...

The ikea laminate flooring continues to chip from the nails in the shoes (the fatal flaw).

However, another problem is that the floor is sensitive to humidity, and in low winter humidity the hardboard shrinks more than the top laminate so the panel tends to sit on the outside short edge and bulge up from the floor by 1/2" or so. So my floor is warped also but slowly flattens out as humidity increases - it is self healing!

So I would not recommend using hardboard as a substrate for gluing laminate flooring - there is not enough structural ridgidity and it is sensitive to humidity. Plywood is better.

Oh and to Anthony's old question, the hardboard is basically a pulp glued and pressed together. It is cheap fake wood that is closer to cardboard than wood. I think it is mainly used as a backer board behind furniture like the back of an ikea wood drawer or ikea shelves etc. It also is what the laminate flooring is mainly made from. Not recommended!



at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 20 2010 1:42:59)

an update on mine, the velcro comes off of the wood sometimes so it needs to be stapled down.

the wood is sufficiently thick enough but i may use thicker wood for the next one just so it wont warp as easily.

i plan to use pegs to attach the pieces together, so i may be able to cut the wood into smaller sections and make it more portable.

more on that later!



a_arnold -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 20 2010 22:43:03)

I have heard of people using salvaged hollow core doors with masonite laid on top of them. Still a problem of how to hinge them.

I made one from a 4x8x1/2" plywood with 1"x2" spacer underneath to raise it off the floor and give it spring. For portability I cut it into 3 pieces (48x32") that clip together, held by bungee cords underneath when in use. Broken down, it fits in the back seat of a car.

I wanted to hinge them together but I couldn't solve the problem of having the hinge pin above the top surface, which made it a trip hazard. So I went with the bungee solution so everything is flush.

I know there are flush (hidden cabinet) hinges available that fold 180 degrees, but the ones I have found would require a very thick platform.



at_leo_87 -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 20 2010 23:05:17)

quote:

For portability I cut it into 3 pieces (48x32") that clip together, held by bungee cords underneath when in use.


hey a_arnold, any possibility of seeing a picture and more detailed explanation of this? im having trouble coming up with an idea to hold the pieces together so that they're perfectly flush and stable.



mark indigo -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 20 2010 23:16:18)

quote:

held by bungee cords underneath when in use


how does that work? i don't know what they (bungee cords) are?



veet -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 21 2010 0:05:48)

http://www.rovingfestival.com/equipmentlist/Bungee-Cords-BTGA041-.jpg



a_arnold -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 21 2010 1:27:59)

quote:

how does that work? i don't know what they (bungee cords) are?


They are rubber or elastic cords with a hook on each end. Normally they are used to tie stuff down to truck beds during transportation. Or for bungee jumping.

Here is a pic of the assembled deck from the bottom with the (black rubber) bungee cords in place. It is a single 4x8 piece of plywood cut into thirds. There is a 1x2 inch support in the middle of each piece and around the edge of each piece. The edges where the assembled pieces join have an overlapping joint to keep the edges flush (see second pic detail below).



The bungee cords fit into the 1 inch space under the plywood so they don't create a fulcrum.

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a_arnold -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 21 2010 1:29:27)

quote:

any possibility of seeing a picture and more detailed explanation of this? im having trouble coming up with an idea to hold the pieces together so that they're perfectly flush and stable.


Here is a closeup of the joint that I used to keep the pieces flush:



Neither piece can move up or down relative to the other when it is fitted together by the removable bungee cords.

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cathulu -> RE: diy dance floors (Dec. 21 2010 2:11:17)

Cool stuff. I like your joint. How does the front look?

Another idea I was thinking is using marine plywood (7 ply in 1/2") with a nice surface decorative hardwood. This beats the 5 ply stuff with marine glues so it should be more warp resistant.

Expensive but probably worth it in the long run...



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