Right hand fingerings (Full Version)

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Skai -> Right hand fingerings (Nov. 9 2004 10:09:57)

Hey everyone!

Just a question. For pieces like the Zambra, where they have a consistent bass rhythm and a melody, what are the fingerings for the right hand? Do you play the melody with rest strokes or free strokes? And what about the thumb melody?

All help appreciated,
Thanks..
Skai [8D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 11 2004 17:50:43)

bass lines rest strokes, melody free strokes.



Skai -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 12 2004 3:13:27)

Thanks alot!
I thought it was all rest strokes because the Zambra I heard on Paco Pena's CD had a melody which stood out so much I thought he was using rest strokes.

How about the thumb usage in tremolo? I'm only sure that the tremolo notes are played with free strokes.

What about arpeggios? According to my Juan Serrano book, it's free stroke for everything except the anular finger which plays the highest note in the arpeggio. However, other sources say that only the thumb plays rest stroke in arpeggios.

Mind helping me with this too?
Sorry for the stupid questions [:D] but thanks alot all the same,
Skai [8D]



rickm -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 12 2004 3:30:56)

i had one teacher who said to use rest stroke in tremelo, particularly lets say requerdos which was supposedly written for the use of a rest stroke,(with the thumb, sorry) however, try and do it at that speed is a different manner. the key to tremelo if you remember is the melody is in the trem part and that should stand out, so I'm not real sure if a rest stroke is appropriate if it makes the bass stand out.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 12 2004 4:37:49)

For flamenco, use the thumb rest stroke in tremolo. As far as the arpeggios, they are free, although if you want to throw in rest stroke with the a that is fine, although I would consider that an advanced technique (to be learned once the other way is mastered). Also, Vicente Amigo plays arpeggios all rest strokes and if you have the time, this might be a good practice technique.



Skai -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 12 2004 5:50:20)

Thanks again.. I can play arpeggios with free strokes easily, a skill left from my classical guitar training. However, you sometimes want the notes in the arpeggio to ring so in that case, do you still use rest strokes?

As for Recuerdos, I play it all with free strokes. But if you use the flamenco tremolo on that piece, you won't need to go as fast and the piece can move slower. I find that recordings of the piece would sound better if played slower as such a piece doesn't sound right when played too fast.

And one more question, I heard that picado should be powered mainly from the midle joint and not the knuckles. But observing the videos of the weird Russian guy posted on this site previously, he seems to use his knuckles too.

Is this incorrect? I also heard that as long as you get the sound you want, it's fine. I can't really hear the difference between the 2 and I find that I can go much faster using knuckles. If I practise using knuckle strokes and stiffen my joints and staccato my notes, would it work as well..?

Thanks alot once again,
Skai [8D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 12 2004 12:19:30)

Skai,
I don't really understand the thing about picado from the 2nd joint...I use the knuckle, and until recently I've never even heard of anyone who didn't! I think it's an image, or a teaching aid because even if you try to use the 2nd joint you end up powering it from the knuckle. More important than where the motion comes from is the attitude of the hand. Is the palm basically parallel to the soundboard, thus necessitating a clawing motion? Or is the wrist arched. Mine is somewhere inbetween. If I were starting out, I would probably keep it parallel, so that it looked more like Vicente Amigo and Paco.

You should practice your thumb rest strokes. When you get them down, they will be faster than thumb free strokes and when I play Recuerdos, I use rest strokes and have no problem with speed. To me the essence of Spanish music includes thumb rest strokes...

I'm not clear what you meant about ringing clearly--did you mean to use free with the fingers or free with the thumb? I'm not aware of any time in flamenco where you need to use free thumb.



Skai -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 12 2004 13:39:28)

The DVDs demonstrate a picado technique that will be familiar to fans of Paco De Lucia, with the stroke being powered almost exclusively from the middle finger joint. Actually, in GM’s case, he favours the stroke coming entirely from that joint, and advocates practising with the large knuckles hyper-extended (bent inwards towards the guitar top) to ensure that the large joint can play no part in the stroke.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=12749&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
It's the 5th paragraph from the botton..

So what must you take note when doing the picado?

As for tremolo and arpeggios, I'll just start working on thumb rest strokes right away..

Thanks a million for the advice,
Skai [8D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 12 2004 19:22:19)

Skai,
I read Jon's review and I have heard that this is the philosophy of this author. But at this point it doesn't make any sense to me.

For picado, I think you want to keep your hand quite still, work on strict alternation, im im im im and mi mi mi. By all means mess around until you get the sound that you hear in your had. Speed comes from stability and a relaxed, liquid hand. Volume comes from pushing the string in toward the soundboard. Practicing a lot of stacatto scales is very useful for flamenco.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 13 2004 8:38:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Skai,
I don't really understand the thing about picado from the 2nd joint...I use the knuckle, and until recently I've never even heard of anyone who didn't! I think it's an image, or a teaching aid because even if you try to use the 2nd joint you end up powering it from the knuckle.


PDL doesn't. As I explained in my review, the Graf Martinez practice technique I described actually makes it impossible to use the knuckle, so you certainly would not end up powering it from that joint.

Plenty of players play it mainly from the 2nd joint Mike, although its true that for plenty of others it will just not feel comfortable.

Whatever works, really.

Jon



hamia -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 13 2004 11:17:40)

I've been practising the GM picardo method for a good few months. It's what might be called an acquired technique - the feeling is very unnatural at first and you will wonder how on earth anyone can play even a simple scale run. It becomes easier with time. When I practice I follow the GM method pretty strictly, making sure that most of the power comes from the 2nd joint - keeping my palm very flat. But to be honest I can't play very fast scale passages like this yet. However, if I allow my right hand a slight curvature (like in the PdL video supplied by Ziyrab) then I can get really fast alternation of fingers. I would guess that it's just a case of more practice to play fast with the flat palm technique (a la Vincente Amigo). Anyway, I'm more than happy with the progress in my picardo since I started using the GM method. I would guess that practising GM's method will benefit anyone - even if they decide to allow some curvature to the right hand.



musicalgrant -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 0:13:41)

I have found that playing picado with a flat palm reduces the speed but devlops the musles need to get the speed, when one practices one tries to get as much a right angle as poss, but when one perfromes you do what is comfortable for you as an individual!!.

As for tremolo I alway use free strokes with the fingers and rest strokes with the thumb till I get to the fourth string, and then it is whatever is easiest!

What is easy for Vincente amigo or tomatitio may not be easy for us! We need to develop our own individual style as they have done.

What is easy for us is not as easy for them[;)]LOL



Skai -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 2:45:05)

For tremolo, maybe I'm playing the first string with my 3 fingers and now I need to play with my thumb on the 2nd string. Do I play free strokes with my thumb in this particular case where the thumb is playing an adjacent string? I find it quite difficult to play rest strokes with my thumb for tremolo when the thumb gets close to the string that the other 3 fingers are playing. So is it still rest stroke for the thumb all the way or are there exceptions?

Wow I've learnt so much from the forum. Thanks everyone, especially since I've no other resources at the moment..

Lastly, does anyone how alzapua exercises with audio examples? I find it easier to have real recordings then try to work towards it since I've not idea how it sounds like.

Thanks,
Skai [8D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 6:30:15)

Skai,
1) I use rest stroke. You can synchronize it so that you play as you lift the thumb from the resting.

2) I would suggest investing in CDs of the great flamenco player such as Paco de Lucia, Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, and Sabicas...and you will learn a lot about how things are supposed to sound.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 8:53:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skai
For tremolo, maybe I'm playing the first string with my 3 fingers and now I need to play with my thumb on the 2nd string. Do I play free strokes with my thumb in this particular case where the thumb is playing an adjacent string?


Yes. This is what Graf Martinez advises and I think it makes good sense. Apart from the difficulty in mainataining a thumb rest stroke here as you point out, the thumb risks killing the tremolo melody, albeit momentarily.

Jon



Skai -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 9:56:41)

Yup, I've got CDs but I can't tell when their doing alzapuas, even though I've no problems recognising the rest. The alzapua with melody and bass notes don't seem to exist in my CDs lol [:D]

I do agree with investing in records, not only can you learn so much by looking and listening, it's just so enjoyable when you let the emotions run through you..

Thanks everyone, that clears up so much..
Skai [8D]



PacoPaella -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 14:46:12)

Hi Skai and all others,

i've mostly been a passive reader so far but i would say that Alzapua is the technique that is easiest to recognize on CD's - once you know what to listen for, you can't miss it. For example, the intro to "Almoraima" and huge parts of it are played with that thumb style, whenever you hear an extreme loud and powerful technique that still carries a melody, unlike the rasgueado.

One lesson i learned for practising it (assuming you know the basic movement) is to do them counting to four, with emphasis on one - as you have 3 strokes in one "cycle" you are forced to learn to emphatize every individual one. All this with subdued strings. Careful not to overdo it, as it is hard on the thumb in the beginning...just a few cycles.

Daniel



Escribano -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 18:20:29)

quote:

the key to tremelo if you remember is the melody is in the trem part

I beg to disagree, it is in the thumb as ever.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 19:27:23)

That's an interesting comment, Simon. Don't you perceive sometimes the bass is merely an arpeggio accompaniment, yet sometimes it actually carries a melodic line? And sometimes the tremolo is a single repeated note, yet sometimes it carries the vocal line?



Ron.M -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 20:15:42)

I agree with Simon here.
Tremelo is very thin and pretty, in Flamenco it only complements what is happening in the bass line.
(This is probably different than what happens in Classical)
The bass line carries the core of the falseta, even if it is just a few notes without a recognisable tune IMO.

cheers

Ron



Escribano -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 20:45:18)

quote:

Don't you perceive sometimes the bass is merely an arpeggio accompaniment


The other way around. IMHO the thumb is never merely. Especially in tremelo. The thumb is the anchor, the essence. If one is learning flamenco, one must start with the thumb.

At the moment, I am listening to Camerón and Tomatito. All p, i, rasgueos, and golpe. Few arpeggios or picado. That is accompanying of course, but that is flamenco. Let's face it, flamenco guitar is rhythm guitar, not lead guitar.

For me, the thumb is the flamenco melody within that rhythm. Arpeggios are not the tune (the canteor sets the tune), perhaps I could be emplored to make an exception for picado in the case of solo guitar, but solo guitar is not flamenco entera.

For me, the guitar is musical percussion for the canteor. At worst it can be a distraction, like letting a sax player into your band[:D]

I am open to being convinced otherwise.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 14 2004 21:19:08)

Simon, sounds like the flamenco pod people have taken over you. Oh well, worse could happen :)

It does make me want to work on my pulgar more. I have found that when I improvise with other people, I am using more and more thumb work...sounds flamenco and it projects better than picado. Picado is hard on the fingers when you try to make it do too much.

But remember that when accompanying the cante, compas is sometimes stretched or changed, and getting through the mix is not an issue. I would argue that a falseta for cante could feature tremolo with the melody in the fingers, could feature loads of picado, and come across quite nicely.



Skai -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 15 2004 3:41:18)

So I'd assume that the emphasis of tremolo in flamenco is different from classical then? Looking at classical pieces like Recuerdos, sometimes the tremolo accompanies a bass melody and at times, the bass notes form an arpeggio while the tremolo sings. I find that the effect their trying to create is to shift between bass melodies and treble melodies from time to time, creating a beautiful shift between the 2..

I noticed that even in Paco Pena's Essential Flamenco Recordings, where he plays Nino Ricardo's Zambra. At times I find that the bass carries the melody, while at other times, the melody in the tremolo is so distinct and the bass notes seem to be an acompanyment.

The philosophy of 'the bass is the falseta' might apply to maybe accompaniment but in solo guitar, I feel that this rule could be sometimes overlooked for the effect..

Even for the rest of the piece, the bass appears to be plaing a repeated arpeggio throughout the whole piece while the trebles are so obviously holding the melody. Does the 'pulgar is everything' rule still apply here? I know that the thumb should always play rest strokes to make it stand out but in this case, the melody in the treble can't be avoided in my opinion..

Personally, when I talk about melody, I consider it as something that can stand on it's own. For example, if you remove the tremolo, the bass notes should form some melody. And if you can remove the bass notes without sacrificing the main melody, then I'd consider that the melody is in the other 3 fingers in this situation..

Skai [8D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 15 2004 4:51:56)

Skai, I think you already know the answer, man. :)



Jon Boyes -> RE: tremolo question (Nov. 15 2004 8:17:38)

Slight tangent... but how often do any of you hear tremolo in flamenco outside the context of solo guitar?

Jon



Ron.M -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 15 2004 8:25:49)

quote:

Personally, when I talk about melody, I consider it as something that can stand on it's own


Skai,
I think talking about melody is something more appropriate to Classical playing.
While some falsetas or compositions may have a melody, countless more have no recognisable melody in the sense that you could whistle the tune.
Flamenco guitar comes from different roots and is dominated by compás, rhythm, rhythmic and percussive effects (rasgueado, alzapua etc) and a lot of use is taken of "opportunistic" notes (notes that just happen to lie under a finger or an open string).
Add to this the love of atonality etc and you see that it would be difficult to sit down with a piece of manuscript paper and write a good falseta.
Also, while some pianists have recreated the sound of the Flamenco guitar, it would be difficult to compose something on the piano that would transfer to the guitar IMO.

cheers

Ron



Jon Boyes -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 15 2004 8:52:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I think talking about melody is something more appropriate to Classical playing.
While some falsetas or compositions may have a melody, countless more have no recognisable melody in the sense that you could whistle the tune.


I read an interesting observation recently - that a falseta should have a 'call' and a 'response', which of course is the basis for improvising in the blues.

Jon



Skai -> RE: Right hand fingerings (Nov. 15 2004 9:19:36)

I agree with the concept of melody.. How often do I see any accompaniment? In fact, I don't think that tremolo is all that suitable for accompaniment to begin with. I've appeared to have forgotten the true meaning of the flamenco guitar, which is rhythm.

But isn't it the purpose of the solo flamenco guitar to carry both accompaniment and also to create images of baile or cante? From what I heard, solo flamenco guitar is a hybrid between flamenco accompaniment and classical style arpeggios etc.

As for the piano recreating the flamenco guitar's sound, I'd really like to hear anything convincing. I honestly don't believe any other instrument can come close.

Skai [8D]



Escribano -> RE: tremolo question (Nov. 15 2004 14:29:34)

quote:

Slight tangent... but how often do any of you hear tremolo in flamenco outside the context of solo guitar?


Solea, Granaina, Malaguenas ..... I thought all these toques were developed for accompanying cante, or am I missing something here?



Jon Boyes -> RE: tremolo question (Nov. 15 2004 14:51:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
Solea, Granaina, Malaguenas ..... I thought all these toques were developed for accompanying cante, or am I missing something here?


So you're saying you hear a lot of tremolo in these palos, i.e. in Cante not solo?

I thought someone here from Spain (Sean?) said recently that tremolo was basically irrelevant in the context of accompanying cante.

Jon



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