QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Full Version)

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gj Michelob -> QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 11:20:58)

Query: is it still a Solea if….???

I am completing my Composition Challenge Solea, but have a few questions for the experts and for those who will eventually criticize my submission:

Provided I am following the 1.2. “3” 4.5 “6” 7 “8” 9 ”10” 11 “12” rhythm:

Is it still a Solea if..... it does not include certain traditional and ubiquitous falsetas, such as the F and C and F and E rasqueos progression, or the A- and C and F and E (country music like phrase)?

Is it still a Solea if..... it weaves its falsetas from a the E-/Bmajor to th A-/Emajor key?

Is it still a Solea if...... the llamada (say while in the A-/Emajor key) ends at times on E, at times on A, at times on G ?

Thank you for your patience and any help you may wish to contribute.



Adam -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 11:24:43)

Oh, I thought this was going to be more philosophical, like "If a soleá is played and no one hears it, is it still a soleá?"



bursche -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 11:43:03)

I'm writing a composition por soleá as well.
There are very untypical harmonic progressions so I maybe wouldn't call a soleá anymore what I play as it just resembles a Soleá rhythmically, but not harmonically.

If you used an alternative key think of Soleares por Bulerías, they're neither Soleares nor Bulerías but create a different and recognisable atmosphere.
I'm working on some kind of "Soleares por Rondeñas" that every purist would hate me for.

Tomatito recorded a Solea entitled "porque tu lo vales" that differs very much from traditional soleares, nevertheless he creates the typical atmosphere.

Gerardo Nuñez recorded "Soleá de la luna coja". Different key, but sounding like a Soleá for me.



Ron.M -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 11:46:01)

quote:

Query: is it still a Solea if….???


gj,

I have asked similar questions to Spanish pros and the answer is always the same.

In Flamenco, you can play ANYTHING you like at all, but it must be within the framework of the particular compás you are playing.

So (having an engineering type mind) I asked that if I played "Scotland the Brave" in a Bulerias timing and kept perfect compás, would it still be Flamenco?

He said that theoretically, yes it would, but certainly not good Flamenco![:D][:D]

Whether it is GOOD or not, depends on too many things for anybody to explain.

Just try it out and see.

cheers,

Ron



Estevan -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 14:25:13)

quote:

"If a soleá is played and no one hears it, is it still a soleá?"

Even more of a soleá - by definition! [;)]



gj Michelob -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 17:11:16)

Thank you, Bursche and Ron, for your replies. That Tomatito's piece, Porque Tu Lo Vales is one of my absolute favorite, and it can serve as a perfect example. Yet, generally, whather it is De Lucia or Pena, Amigo or Habichuela, those earmark-phrases are always there. I cannot help feeling that I am betraying the Palo by skipping through as i am.

I guess, as Ron suggests, I should just try it and see what the general reaction will be.

'sounds like you and I are working rather seriously on our compositions, Bursche. I cannot wait to hear yours, I am very fond of your brilliant work.

Merry Christmas.



por medio -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 17:23:08)

Good ol' Ron pretty much explained it all.

I believe Solea is Solea if it carries it's compas - and I don't mean one two THREE, four five SIX etc or having typical (or whatever) chord progressions.

Compas is difficult to describe. It's the Solea that you feel when you hear Chocolate ripping his heart out. It's Buleria that you feel when you hear Paco and Camaron. It's Alegria that you feel when you hear the voice of Arcangel.

I think it's more about what your "spiritual intention" is when you compose and play your music. If you intend to compose and play Solea, then you would need to connect with what Solea is for you - but in order to do that and be Flamenco you would need to really know what Solea compas is (or has been).

It's much easier to put some jazzy chords and accent in certain places while playing twelve beat bar music than play a single chord and carry a Solea compas that will resonate with Flamencos. A lot depends on your heart and your right hand [;)]

If you know your Solea compas, and play what you composed with right intentions (of playing Solea from your heart), then you would know if what you composed is Solea or not.

And yeah it's much easier said than done!
[:(][:(]



gj Michelob -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 25 2009 17:47:03)

quote:

I think it's more about what your "spiritual intention" is when you compose and play your music. If you intend to compose and play Solea, then you would need to connect with what Solea is for you - but in order to do that and be Flamenco you would need to really know what Solea compas is (or has been).


Well put, Por Medio. Beside not possessing the profound knowledge you are referring to, I do not have the "standing" either. I mean, who would challenge Tomatito's composition, but mine.... no matter how "good" my intentions are.

However, i did feel it a Solea form the outset. I will follow that instinct and hope not to offend anyone.

Thank you.



XXX -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 3:52:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche
I'm working on some kind of "Soleares por Rondeñas" that every purist would hate me for.


If theres no cante in it, they wont even take notice, or, they would think its Jazz...



Arash -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 5:38:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche
I'm working on some kind of "Soleares por Rondeñas" that every purist would hate me for.


If theres no cante in it, they wont even take notice, or, they would think its Jazz...


or someone could sue you , because it was 'psychologically inadvisable' for him to listen to your solea

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/09/spanish-cops-called.html

but you are a lawayer, you know better

[:D]



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 7:39:11)

i envy you guys...i seem to suffer from a lack of inspiration, the only time i had some and i had a piece together in my head, i didn't have a guitar nearby to find the notes and then i had forgotten everything...also i didn't have a lot of time to play the guitar, thankfully i now have the next 4 days free so i'll get to some composing finally...
i was also thinking about a soleá, i love the palo but it would be too many soleás for this challenge...so i'm sticking to my original idea of rondena, standard slowish guitar solo as a warm up and i'll try to rush it into bulería towards the end...i also have a world class percussionist to color it once it's finished :)



gj Michelob -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 8:12:19)

quote:

or someone could sue you , because it was 'psychologically inadvisable' for him to listen to your solea

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/09/spanish-cops-called.html

but you are a lawayer, you know better


I really do not need any psychological warfare of intimidation tactics [:D], I am already rather “anxious” about the whole matter. I dared the foro to this challenge, and indeed I love composing. However, I am quite apprehensive about the public reaction now that I have to show ability to adhere to a set of rules. Leave alone the technical distance between me and the fine musicians contributing on this site.

…. Cold frozen feet…. will accompany my hesitant submission.

I should really invite Jason over for a glass of wine and have him parse my grammar, so to speak, before I make a ridiculous fool out of myself.

Yet, I am loving every stressful moment of this process. Go figure.

‘Hope y’all had a magic Christmas.



Ricardo -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 11:49:49)

Simple rule about composing within a music "song form". If YOU are the composer, and YOU have to ask someone else if it is still the form?....then it is certainly NOT, unless by freak accident. For example. You compose a piece and ask a music theory professor if you have just composed a "sonata allegro" or "a fugue" or even a "blues"..but not absolutely 100% sure about it, then you have not studied the form enough. You should know way before hand if what you are composing is a form or not.

Having said that, there is no law against calling something whatever form you want, thinking it is....it is up to the critics or experts to say "well sorry that is not a proper Sonata Allegro because..." and that's all there is to it IMO.

What you probably really want to ask is if in YOUR SOLEA, do the aficionados and experts accept your creation as true solea, and not some sort of crossover. That will depend on the tastes of whom you ask.

Ricardo



gj Michelob -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 15:48:35)

quote:

then you have not studied the form enough


I was hoping you would intervene, Ricardo, but I am afraid I just got scolded, didn’t I?

In my futile defense, I did study the form obsessively, and perhaps that is why I wanted my composition in that form to be significantly different. I realize the danger in both approaches, too conservative may simply plagiarize someone else’s work, too liberal may lose sight of the palo. Then, i suppose only experience can supply the level of confidence I do not have, no matter how deeply I study the form.

This could be a sneak preview of some of the criticism I am about to expose myself to… oh well...

‘feel like quitting, after this.



HolyEvil -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 20:25:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

‘feel like quitting, after this.



do not quit.. warning do NOT quit..
the last piece you put up on the foro, I enjoyed immensely! =)



por medio -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 26 2009 22:21:24)

The ones who contributed to the progression of Flamenco are the ones who dared to challenge and put their neck on the chopping board.

The ones who stay "safe", well, they are doing their part too of holding the reference point I guess.

Don't get discouraged. After all, it's much easier to talk the talk. You however, are walking the walk so God bless you for that.

Good on you for being so humble too. I'm sure that you're much more talented than what you're making yourself out to be here.

I'm sure all of us will learn from what you'll have to say with your composition.

[;)]



Pimientito -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 27 2009 1:07:29)

quote:

feel like quitting, after this

Dont worry.... I still get those days.



edguerin -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 27 2009 2:47:16)

quote:

quote:

"If a soleá is played and no one hears it, is it still a soleá?"


Even more of a soleá - by definition!


If actually played on the guitar it would be heard by the tocaor, wouldn't it?
If played by some mechanical device (i. e. cd-player etc., without direct human intervention) it wouldn't be a solea IMO[;)]



Doitsujin -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 27 2009 2:58:01)

gj..in flamenco you canname any composition as you like..

check out gerardos "farruca" from andando el tiempo" or also the farruca of Juan Carlos Romero from the CD Romero... There are absolutely 0% compasses played that remind on farruca.. But they call it farruca. So,.. whatever you composed,..if you say it is a solea...than it will be a solea. [:)]



JasonMcGuire -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 27 2009 4:18:14)

Don't quit GJ. We are certainly due for a drink together.

Ricardo is right, but even if you make some error in your composition, it will be of great importance to your education in the long run. We learn by our mistakes.

I used to have a Solea that the middle half of was pretty much libre. Basically it wasn't in compas. It wasn't intended to be that way. I asked a few people and they basically said to "call it what you want... it sounds like a solea." Paco Fernandez heard me play it in a concert one night at the New World Flamenco Festival and complemented me on it and he referred to it as a solea. That put it to rest for me. I broke rules yet it was considered by many people I respect to be a solea. Of course there are some who might say otherwise.

It is sort of a shame we have to label our expression as composers one form or another, but you do have a responsibility to flamenco to do your homework and study the work of others and the knowledge gained from that study will both guide you to compose within the forms in an acceptable manner as well as give you much inspiration in the way that a poet studying the works of other poets strengthens their ability to be unique.



gj Michelob -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 27 2009 6:13:04)

Thank you gentlemen for your kindest and encouraging remarks, I went to sleep enveloped in the lowering cloud of depression. When I started composing for this challenge I decided to be true to my commitment (i) compose a new piece (ii) in a traditional palo (as opposed to a toque libre). Above all, I worked really hard on this composition: it was really difficult while I was learning how to play it, now –a few weeks later- it seems quite simple a series of falsetas.

Thank you, HolyEvil, your compliments, undeserved as they maybe, make my heart glow.
Thank you, Por Medio, I think you understood why I am doing this. At my age and station in life, playing Flamenco reminds me of how ignorant I still am about the cultural treasures of our undiscovered world.
Thank you, Pimientito, for not dismissing my concern too hurriedly and for instead offering a word of understanding.
Thank you, Doitsujin, I needed a touch of your uncompromising confidence.
Thank you, Jason, I subscribe to your site, and that –together with this forum, which I worship- is the only teacher my schedule allows. Any encouragement form you is obviously important –as I fear your criticism. Yet my fears also explain the enormous gaps in my learning progress and understanding. I never claimed to be “ready”. I will be forever some hesitant student of this elusive form of art which has hypnotized me.

I might have endeavored on a dangerous mission by composing a Solea. As I wrote earlier, I do not suffer from any mental delusion that I may suddenly posses Jason or Ricardo’s talent or technical arsenal. My only “weapon” is in weaving a melodic texture over the constraints of a rigid form and somehow hope to distract the audience into whistling my notes….

Above all, even if I should make a fool of myself, knowing that some of you may show such kind heart when listening to my work, is the greatest encouragement.

Thank you.



KMMI77 -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 27 2009 16:17:45)

I think it is quite normal to feel the way you do when writing music. I have spent the last three days working on one original falseta that goes for about 40 seconds. The process can be very tiring.

After playing the initial falseta idea a few hundred times, I started to hear missing notes and began questioning whether i am improving the idea or not. I then spent another day playing and experimenting with the ideas phrasing. Making a decision on a particular way, or phrase to record. Then there is the process of practicing all the details of the chosen phrase so you can capture it while recording. Then there is the question, Maybe nobody will like this?[:D][:D]



gj Michelob -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 27 2009 19:48:52)

quote:

I think it is quite normal to feel the way you do when writing music. I have spent the last three days working on one original falseta that goes for about 40 seconds. The process can be very tiring.

After playing the initial falseta idea a few hundred times, I started to hear missing notes and began questioning whether i am improving the idea or not. I then spent another day playing and experimenting with the ideas phrasing. Making a decision on a particular way, or phrase to record. Then there is the process of practicing all the details of the chosen phrase so you can capture it while recording. Then there is the question, Maybe nobody will like this?
_____________________________
Kris


You sure captured the critical steps of the process, kris.
Will you submit your composition for the Challenge?



KMMI77 -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 28 2009 0:37:36)

quote:

Will you submit your composition for the Challenge?


I am writing this one with the competition in mind. [;)]



flybynight -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 28 2009 0:44:09)

gj,

One other thing that must colour your perception of future criticism is that you have chosen to contribute to this forum as a 'real person', without hiding behind a nickname.

It might help simply to set up a new nickname on the forum, be anonymous, and submit content like that. Then after you have soaked in all the excellent criticism from this site, and you're more confident, begin uploading content as yourself.

In this way, the critique and learning process will be less 'personal'. Sometimes it helps to play games with your own mind, and use a new nickname as the proxy for the criticism.

They later on you can wallow in the adoration of your future quality content as your real self.

Good luck, and don't give up.

Jon.



bursche -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 28 2009 0:56:03)

GJ,

If you want to be sure that what you're composing sounds like Soleá
take any recording you like - I'd suggest to choose a more traditional sounding one - and then very much copy the technical structure of the falsetas while using your own harmonic progressions.

Just make sure it doesn't resemble the original too much. I'd guess that most composers start like this.

At least I discovered that I tend to invent confusing things when I don't have certain examples to look closely at.



gj Michelob -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 28 2009 7:22:33)

How cowardly of me to even suggest I would quit. I cannot. I instigated this competition, after all, my surrender would send a discouraging message I must avoid.

In fact, my presence lowers the threshold of quality to the ultimate amateur’s level, thus opening a wide window for many a member who may feel otherwise intimidated by competing with the professionals we enjoy on this forum.

Kris, I really hope you too will overcome any fear and contribute your composition.

Jon, thank you for your advice, it is however now too late to “skip bail and hide”… I will stand trial in my own name.

Brusche, I did exactly that, at the beginning, I followed the structure of soleas I heard and watched other musicians play. However, as you certainly experience yourself, a composition will eventually take the lead and take the composer elsewhere.

I like what I composed. I am in Santa Cruz, and last night I sat on the balcony as the skies turned red into the sunset over the ocean’s crushing waves. Cigarettes and wine to perpetrate the ritual, I played my “solea (?)” until my fingers could not take it any more… and I –I mean my own self- I loved it. I thought of you and Ricardo, Jason and Ron, Kris and HolyEvil, Ricecracker and Jim Opfer, Todd and Escribano, Ailsa and At_leo, Doits and Florian, and all the people I love to read and listen to on this forum: I thought what will Tomatito say? And frankly, it did not matter to me, not at that moment, because that was exactly the music I wanted to hear to accompany that wonderful sunset.

This challenge should remain fun and –as Jason wisely pointed out- an educational process for all of us. So let’s enjoy it.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 28 2009 9:52:41)

"what will Tomatito say?" - are you implying that he'll be one of our judges? [8|]



Ron.M -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 28 2009 10:16:31)

quote:

and I –I mean my own self- I loved it.


Spot on, gj..

That's what it's all about IMO.
Not repeating endless technical exercises ad infinitum.

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: QUERY: is it still a Solea if….??? (Dec. 28 2009 13:42:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
I like what I composed.


Thats great. Finally somebody who says he likes his own stuff. Many are so hypercritical with themselves. As if we have to produce genius ideas all the time. Thats not the sense of making music, is it? I enjoy playing my own stuff as much as others stuff, why not?



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