RE: What do you think of????? (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 1:35:34)

quote:

How do I reply to anyone other than to click the reply button at the bottom of the page. I am clueless.


Wannabee,

Yeah....lots of folk do that and it causes a lot of confusion about who is replying to whom.

If you are logged in, you will see that each post has a "Post Reply" button in the upper RH corner.

Use that rather than going to the bottom of the page or replying to the first post on the page.

If you are not logged in then you won't see them.

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 1:54:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
btw, have you seen JM accompany dancers? anyone who saw the tour with Eva Yerbabuena back in the mid-nineties will know what i'm talking about.

the show i saw they had given up completely on JM even trying to accompany the dancers and so he came on and played a couple of polite solos and then went off and Paco Jarana (Eva's husband) came on and played for the dancers and singers. repeat after interval. at the end JM came back on to join the rest of the group, he looked like he was miming while grinning inanely. This was when i first started to think there was something not quite right about the JM thing, and before i had heard any of the "rumours".

I later heard from other people that earlier in the tour he had been on stage with the dancers and it had been a disaster.

i have seen him since then with dancers, and his accompaniment has been tentative, plodding and simplistic - you can't excuse him by saying it's "old school" or "traditional" because when you compare it to Manuel Morao or Melchor de Marchena, he looks like a student playing for a dance class.... in fact he looks and sounds a bit like he learnt some chord sequences from a book....


lol thats some devastating info on JM. Not to bash him, but out of curiosity I wonder what made him and Eva come together? Dont they practice before going on tour???
Oh and there is TONS of good material for beginners out there, not just JM. Like John, I never learned from his stuff for example. I would even say most of the stuff is musically more interesting and useful than the JM stuff.



Mike_Kinny -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 2:00:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Yeah, and I heard from some of those people that Paco was the first to use capo in flamenco, he invented alzapua, he invented iia rasgeo (except Ruben), etc. etc.


are you talking about ruben or someone else? is this meant to be serious or frustrated sarcasm because someone has a different opinion to you and actually is trying to say something interesting about it and back up what they say? if it's a joke, try using these[:D][:D][:D] otherwise, what are you trying to say?


No joking amigo. Did you think Ruben's Paco talk is an isolated case? It's a trend, culture, survival tactic, call it whatever you like.

What I'm trying to say is that don't give up your own judgment. Just because somebody is such a prominent figure in flamenco that his name is Moraito, doesn't mean everything he says is correct, specially things he says about Paco.



Ailsa -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 2:16:25)

quote:

everyone else is sitting back (with their popcorn) and watching this thread for entertainment


OMG Mark, I had no idea I was so predictable! [:D][:D] I feel so guilty that I've become a lurker I have to find some posts to comment on.

quote:

people like Ricardo and Norman ..... it has taken me years to get to the point where i know enough to even appreciate the level these guys are on.


Yep I have to admit when I started a couple of years ago some of those posts went way over my head. At least I'm following them now!

quote:

original: Por Medio - I believe what Paco has done with each album to push composition, techniques and treatment of Compas to the next level is unprecedented

Yeah I think that sums it up for me too. You don't have to like everything he's done to see what a contribution he has made.

[&o][&o]Sorry, not nearly enough popcorn value in that.......



Pimientito -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 2:55:50)

quote:

btw, have you seen JM accompany dancers? anyone who saw the tour with Eva Yerbabuena back in the mid-nineties will know what i'm talking about.


I saw that tour when I was living in England. I journeyed a long way to see one of those shows for the opportunty to see Eva Yerbabuena. Its exactly as you described with Paco Jarana doing the hard bits in the dark at the back of the group with the spotlight mainly on Juan. Pacos playing and Evas choreography are incredibly well orchestrated and rehearsed and some of the most complex out there. I met Eva in Granada some years later and asked her if she remembered the tour and what her opinion of the whole thing was. I got an interesting answer[:D]
The point is though that Juan Martin did introduce a lot of people in the Uk to flamenco, his teaching material got a lot of people started in playing guitar and his shows had guests of a very high calibre that you might not normally get to see outside of Spain. For all those things you have to give him credit...and he certainly works hard. Those are the positive things to focus on and his business model is perfect. Hardly any players I know have supplies of CDs, videos, books, photos etc when they go on tour and this loses
1. income
2. publicity
3. credibility
I think this is what pro players can learn from Juan, how to organise gigs and become sucessful instead of concentrating on who is the best player.



Arash -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 3:34:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

I think this is what pro players can learn from Juan, how to organise gigs and become sucessful


i think this whole system works only for JM (+ some others)

its the combination of easy flamenco for the general public / mainstream + good business tactics + some other details , which works for them.

i don't think that if pro. players copy these tactics, but KEEP their way of playing, their attitude, etc.....that they will be much more successful than what they are right now.... paco is an exception (btw, pacos audience is different from JMs)

to be honest: thats also why i have lot of respect for them and for those guitarist, who maybe sell just a few CDs at flamenco-world and some other "underground" places , because only a few % really get what they are playing and buy such CDs, etc.
for many others, this is just "too much" ;-), they need something, they can handle

i mean, some of them could easily completely change to easy listening flamenco and make more money, but then they would simply sell theirselves to the "system".



mark indigo -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 4:29:54)

quote:

I wonder what made him and Eva come together?


my guess would be Eva keen to work outside Spain, JM has the contacts, publicity etc., and he gets kudos bringing the best upcoming artists from Spain, the agents work out the details....

I also had a copy of the white book of JM (i had a teacher before that, so i didn't actually start with that book), and that show was quite an eye opener for me, to see JM compared with Paco Jarana and the rest of the group of dancers and singers..... you could say the first seed of JM doubt was sown![:D]

Pimientito is right of course, JM has introduced a lot of people to flamenco, has provided teaching materials at a time when there wasn't much, if anything, else, and brought artists over from Spain. His business and promotion is second to none, all guitarists (and singers) should have cd's available at gigs!



Pimientito -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 5:50:28)

quote:

i mean, some of them could easily completely change to easy listening flamenco and make more money, but then they would simply sell theirselves to the "system".


I think you misunderstand. I dont think its about changing style or becoming easy listening to become sucessful. I am not talking about making pop records instead of flamenco records. What I am saying is that there are a lot of amazing world class players out there who are hopeless businessmen and cant even be organised enough to have recordings available at concerts.

I dont really want to target anyone in particular here but some of the great players who are not known outside of Spain or even outside of flamenco circles only have themselves to blame because being a great musician is only 50 percent of the story. I cant count the number of times i have seen amazing singers and well known players who dont even take their own recordings to shows. Juans model of making teaching CDs, having easily available recordings and pushing publicity (even at the expense of using better artists to further his name) is a great business model. When players or groups go on tour with no website, posters, CDs, booklets, DVDs, Tshirts, anything that gets their name known then its harder to become sucessful. Juans business model is worth looking at again because if he can do it then some of us here could do it even better.



Pimientito -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 6:08:16)

p.s. If "selling yourself to the system" goes against any artistic sensibilities one may have, it might be worth thinking about getting an agent or promoter. In these times there are plenty of people who would be glad of the job of helping you get gigs, put together products and publicity and make some income in return for a comission. This would leave you to the creative process without having to worry about the business side of things.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 6:19:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito
What I am saying is that there are a lot of amazing world class players out there who are hopeless businessmen and cant even be organised enough to have recordings available at concerts.


or they just dont care so much for the business side?



Pimientito -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 6:29:18)

Well that could be true too. I know a lot of great players who are happy to never leave the Albaicin.
However if that is the case then none of us should be complaining about why JM and Ottmar liebert etc. are so sucessful. The answer is mediocre proficiency, confidence and good promotion. All I am saying is that some of us here who might be interested in making a career out of flamenco could find looking at and analysing the sucess of these people a little more closely quite useful....and maybe end up being even more sucessful without having to compromise their art.



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 7:48:32)

quote:

quote:
I respect other's opinions but not erroneous info that some folk (here and anywhere) think they can get away with it cause their bulerias is better than person X's.

i wonder who you are talking about?


I wasn't talking about anyone in particular. And I'm sure wasn't intentional but by taking a part and not the whole of my past post out of context it changes the meaning. Agreed, some folks here are wonderful players but that doesn't necessarily mean all that much. (at least to me)

Truthfully, I'm more impressed and will give more credibility to facts and / or stated by someone who's had to work hard for it over the years rather than to the guy with the natural talent. A gift from the gods impresses me less than hard work.

Stoney



mark indigo -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 8:22:20)

quote:

An extreme example is his past pupil Paco Serrano who can play but who is obviously a little spoiled by the Paco Pena school IMO


i meant to ask you about this, i didn't know Paco Serrano learnt from Paco Peña, what's the story? how is he spoiled by it?

Once he seemed like an upcoming talent, accompanying singing and dance, and always playing his falsetas different ways, but don't hear much about Paco Serrano these days...



Mike_Kinny -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 9:10:49)

quote:

i meant to ask you about this, i didn't know Paco Serrano learnt from Paco Peña, what's the story? how is he spoiled by it?


Paco Serrano studied flamenco at Rotterdam Conservatory where Paco Pena is a teacher. Spoiled means Doit doesn't like it [:D]



TAKITAKATA -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 10:19:56)

yeah but only for one year to get the certificate .He knew it all before he went there ![:)]



Ron.M -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 10:49:38)

quote:

However if that is the case then none of us should be complaining about why JM and Ottmar liebert etc. are so sucessful. The answer is mediocre proficiency, confidence and good promotion. All I am saying is that some of us here who might be interested in making a career out of flamenco could find looking at and analysing the sucess of these people a little more closely quite useful.


Very, very good post Pim,

I've never known anybody who has ever "made it", in any walk of life just sitting at home quietly and waiting for the phone to ring...

From Paco Peña to Billy Connolly...these guys worked hard to make the entertainment distribution machine work for them.

Good on 'em!

Thomas Edison didn't just sit looking at the light bulb he just made, waiting for someone to knock on his door asking if he had any good stuff to offer the world.

50% playing your art, 50% getting out there and promoting yourself.

Nobody is going to seek you out.

Paco used to work various small Folk Clubs and Students Union gigs all around the UK for a few quid, as did Billy Connolly.

Now it costs a fortune to hire them.

cheers,

Ron



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 11:04:17)

I love these threads. You never know which way they are going to turn.

Aside from promotion, you need a product someone will be interested in. Sadly, the Ottmars and Strunzes and Farahs et al have a product that has a market. That's what I meant about some players like Paco De Lucia and Vicente Amigo being "over the top." I love music and making music for it's own sake and am content 95% of the time to just sit in my room and practice, just for the discovery of it all. They obviously play what they want to play and good on em.

BUT...

If your intention is to get out there and sell it, another element comes into play. The balance between selling out VS. beating people to death with your brilliance is more brutal in this genre than in any other.

Example, there you are in the local tapas bar, playing the Tarantas that you have worked on perfecting for the last 5 years, you have it just right but no one is paying any damn attention to your sublties, the tension and release you are trying to create gets lost amoung the noise of the clanging dishes and cutlery and you just know in the back of your mind that everyone would be paying a hell of a lot more attention if you could just learn the words to "Bamboleo."

We all must have a masochistic streak.

Stoney



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 11:35:16)

quote:

Paco Serrano studied flamenco at Rotterdam Conservatory where Paco Pena is a teacher. Spoiled means Doit doesn't like it


Exactly. Me was also told that he also teaches over there in the school. With spoiled I meant somehow negatively influenced (of course IMO). He plays solid but his hands look cramped,.. forced to hold them in a stereotypic "correct" position. Thats one of the things what is very important for Paco Penna. I agree with Gerardo nunez who stated that you have to hold your hands in a natural, relaxing way to get the best result. Funny is,..the positioning of his hands is the most perfect Ive ever seen..^^

I have several friends who studied at this school in Rotterdamn. They told me a lot about Paco Pena.. it had no promoting effect.

By the way,.. does anybody see a need for a royal conservatory for flamenco and/ or the need for a diploma in solo flamenco guitar and for playing for dance? Does that change much in the guitarrists live? Do you think they get all the things they need there? Im just interested in your opinion.. This time I wont tell my opinion in order to maintqain harmony..[&o]



XXX -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 11:37:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
I have several friends who studied at this school in Rotterdamn. They told me a lot about Paco Pena.. it had no promoting effect.


LOL!
I somehow had guessed it. [8D]
Oh, i wouldnt dismiss any organisation that gives the people the opportunity to learn this stuff. Assuming the education is good, and you dont learn to play in a cramped position, why not? Maybe they also have a course in flamenco marketing?
"Recent studies have shown, that the palo rumba has very high selling rates..."

@Stoney: PDL and Vicente are not good examples of the flamenco world to show that flamenco has no market. (It has btw. its just not as big as in other genres, and it doesnt have to, too). They are the most heavily promoted artists. Honestly, i think its no big deal that it is appealing to a small audience. Most beginners have problems with that. I did not "understand" my first CD either. But something made me stick to it and search further. Others prefer other music. Thats none of the business of flamenco artists IMO.

btw! Ricardo has a good promotion! Theres alot to learn from him too. Ricardo do you sell t-shirts at your concerts too? ahaha..



at_leo_87 -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 11:56:16)

quote:


Truthfully, I'm more impressed and will give more credibility to facts and / or stated by someone who's had to work hard for it over the years rather than to the guy with the natural talent. A gift from the gods impresses me less than hard work.


this makes no sense to me. what's natural talent? i'm sure everyone here who plays well had to work hard for it.



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 12:05:09)

quote:

this makes no sense to me. what's natural talent? i'm sure everyone here who plays well had to work hard for it.


I believe it's called perfect pitch and means that you are born with the ability to distinguish intervals 100% of the time. This is not an opinion, it's a scientific and proven fact. It would seem to me that if you don't have to train your ear at all to recognize the pitches the job of learning music just became about 500% easier.



Stoney



at_leo_87 -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 12:11:50)

quote:

I believe it's called perfect pitch and means that you are born with the ability to distinguish intervals 100% of the time. This is not an opinion, it's a scientific and proven fact. It would seem to me that if you don't have to train your ear at all to recognize the pitches the job of learning music just became about 500% easier.


ok so what's the percentage of people born with perfect pitch? and who here has perfect pitch? and even then, how do they translate those pitches to the guitar without the hard work and time needed to develop the technique to? there's no such thing as talent, imo. and if there is, it's almost insignificant.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 12:15:28)

Perfect pitch is not required and learning the "meaning" of chords is uncomparabely more important than to be instantly able to recognize the notes. Often enough the absolute notes are not interesting anyway, since we like to play with capos.
Btw perfect pitch is the ability to recognize absolute notes. An Intervall is the distance between two notes. Anybody can learn dividing intervalls and chords. Im sure you COULD do that with perfect pitch too, but nobody does it, because you simply dont need it. Having perfect pitch does not make you a better musician. You have to train your "ear", or more precisely, your harmonic knowledge, in any case.



Ron.M -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 12:15:38)

quote:

If your intention is to get out there and sell it, another element comes into play. The balance between selling out VS. beating people to death with your brilliance is more brutal in this genre than in any other.


The Beatles in their early days played in Liverpool, went to Hamburg, playing 6 hour gigs and sleeping on floors... with all venues paying peanuts, or not getting paid at all.
Brian Epstein knocked on all the doors of the big record distribution studios in London and was famously told by the Decca A&R man..."Yeah...they're OK I suppose...but guitar bands are on their way out. Sorry, next..."

Until eventually EMI reluctantly gave them the chance of recording a trial single.

I saw Billy Connolly and Gerry Rafferty up the Glasgow Folk Centre in 1969 getting paid a fiver between them for their efforts....John Martyn too.


Funnily enough...I've just been watching a cookery programme hosted by Jaime Oliver, the young Celebrity chef and "guy next door", with jeans and a T-shirt who speaks wiv a Seoff London accent, mixed wiv a bit of "o'ws yer Father...just give it that, Darling.." cockney stuff.

A cheeky chappie and a bit of a lad to 'ave a pint with.

You wouldn't think he has several restaurants all over the world and is worth 35 Million!

"No problem Darlin'...jus give it a bit of this an' that..."[:D]

I'm not saying he's a bad cook..but just that he's a good businessman too and not really selling out on his fundamental principles and interests in cooking to anybody, but just caught on to the fact that it's more enjoyable to do TV cookery programmes at 50 grand a time than spend a shift in a hot kitchen for 50 quid.

Main thing was IMO, they all had belief in what they did.

cheers,

Ron



Escribano -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 13:34:26)

quote:

Main thing was IMO, they all had belief in what they did.


As in any big endeavour, without belief you lose - and if you do have doubts... keep them to yourself.



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 14:12:03)

Here is a video I found on youtube, someone took when Paco Pena teached in the school in Rotterdam. Maybe someon is interested.




cathulu -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 15:08:11)

Has anyone ever considered that perhaps Juan Martin was on drugs during those terrible performances? Honestly it sounds like that to me from the descriptions given. Perhaps the stress of everything got to him and he got pissed before stepping on stage. Drugs can do terrible things to people.

I have seen Juan a couple of years ago, and he did a professional performance with the dancers. He signed my El Arte Flamenco aka the white book. He did a wonderful sevillanas with the male and female dancer interweaving. Oh, sorry that isn't flamenco! [:D]



John O. -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 15:26:52)

quote:

I'm more impressed and will give more credibility to facts and / or stated by someone who's had to work hard for it over the years rather than to the guy with the natural talent.


Natural talent is the ability to hyperfocus on something you have a passion for. Paco de Lucia played on average over 12 hours a day, Tomatito was similar as are all great musicians. John Williams may only PRACTICE 30 minutes a day, but he PLAYS quite a lot longer, I'm sure. Nobody picked up a guitar and played perfectly. It's just the ones with talent never get bored, always continue to learn new things and can suck it all up like a sponge, another thing is of course growing up in the right environment.

In a nutshell, my students who are good play the entire day and can think of nothing else. The ones who are bad, don't.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 17:07:58)

This might stir things up a little.

It's rare (because such talent is rare) but on occasion you meet a person who has just started playing and it's obvious he or she is a virtuoso. Talent exists in every sphere of endeavor and eventually there's no way around this realization. Of course talent isn't enough--hard work is essential but most people can only progress so far no matter how much time they spend practicing—and this doesn’t only apply to music. It takes less time to develop skill on electric guitar than on nylon but how many people actually play electric well? Where are all the great electric guitar players? There should be millions of them by now.

One of my uncles was a virtuoso on the violin. He mastered Paganini by the time he was 13 or 14 years old (and no I didn’t inherit his talent). You think it was only hard work? His first teacher referred him to another teacher after he progressed on the instrument. The second teacher offered to teach him for free after he heard him play. You think it was a reward for “hard work” or more a recognition of his talent. He had a 45-year career teaching, recording and performing with most if not all of the great jazz and classical musicians from the 1940’s to the 1990’s. I recall comments he made about people with perfect pitch having difficulty because of the even tempered system used in western music. It was actually an impediment as far as he was concerned. Perfect pitch is a talent, but this doesn’t ensure a person will become a good musician EVEN WITH A LOT OF PRACTICE. Also, a person can have all the technique necessary to be a great player but not have much or even any musical sensitivity. Vicente has—and plays with--great sensitivity--you think he does so only by choice and that everyone else chooses not to express their sensitivity when performing? As far as my uncle was concerned musical sensitivity was THE most important aspect of a person’s musicianship and really what is music without it? Just a bunch of notes played in time. I’ve noticed in classical music especially that the artists who make it to the very pinnacle have great sensitivity and technical prowess. These two qualities are often noted in articles on great classical musicians, but I can’t recall any articles mentioning perfect pitch as an important factor.

BTW: Doesn’t “Strunz” mean t*rd in southern Italy?



kozz -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 18 2009 19:25:35)

quote:

Has anyone ever considered that perhaps Juan Martin was on drugs during those terrible performances? Honestly it sounds like that to me from the descriptions given. Perhaps the stress of everything got to him and he got ****ed before stepping on stage. Drugs can do terrible things to people

He was on crack because of cold hands.[8D]



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