RE: What do you think of????? (Full Version)

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Ramon Amira -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:01:50)

No one here has yet addressed my question – if he's faking being Spanish – why? There have been flamenco guitarists who were not Spanish, and didn't feel any need or see any reason to make believe to the public that they were. And there have been flamenco guitar instruction books written by non-Spaniards who didn't feel that need either. Why go through all that – as I called it – rigamarole. Which brings us to the accent. Anyone who hasn't seriously tried it professionally may not appreciate how difficult it is to do well. You can't just say "Okay, now I am going to start using a Spanish accent" and Presto! you've got a great Spanish accent. It's like learning flamenco guitar – in order to do it really well, you have to both study it and practice it. Frequently with a teacher, incidentally, as well as study and practice on your own. And to do it really well takes a great deal of study and practice. There is a large number of very specific nuances of an accent that have to be learned. And moreover each accent has it's own. If you study the subject, you will see that native speakers of any language almost always all have the same accent when speaking English. A Cuban accent is not the same as a Mexican accent, and neither one is the same as a Spanish accent, though to the average person they all may sound "Spanish." So to do it well entails an enormous amount of time and effort. The point of all this leads back to my original question, "Why on earth go through all that?" Does anyone suppose that he figured his flamenco guitar playing would sound better to the public if they thought he was Spanish? - or he thought that more people would buy his well received instructional materials just because they thought they had been written by a Spaniard? – and that he went through all that just for the dubious slight advantage that might confer. Maybe – but it seems outlandish that anyone who can play as well as he does, and who can create excellent instructional books and videos would feel the need to perpetrate some kind of colossal hoax for no discernible reason.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:04:11)

oh did he really say that? I dont have read everything he wrote. Flying over the posts i must have missed out the funniest parts [:D]
No i actually have no opinion on PP. I am using an alegrias falseta that is probably his (im not that familiar with his stuff). Because there are only 2 alegrias falsetas i can play [:D] i suck so horribly [:D]



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:08:12)

Juan Martin is an interesting character in flamenco.

He always effects heated discussions. I think everybody will agree that the traditional material that he collected is a very good recourse for beginners and also for any average traditional falemnco guitar aficionado. I learned a lot from his white book when I started. I literally sucked the flamenco out of his book. I loved it. So he deserves some respect as person who made the traditional flamenco guitar accessible for many people.
If one of his accents is fake... well who cares.^^ Maybe his comercial tactics are seriously worser.. Man we had some great entertaining threads about him where he offered a collection of his material in a package together with a free knife-set..

Paco Pena.. well.. hes a very serious traditional style player. I also learned a lot of his material. i.e. his nice farruca. But then I bought misa flamenca.. and heared some bad stories about his point of view about teaching and techniques.. with which I totally disagree. An extreme example is his past pupil Paco Serrano who can play but who is obviously a little spoiled by the Paco Pena school IMO. Well.. my personal taste. ;.)

That deluxe Ottmar Lieberts like Strunz and Farah have enthusiastic fanboys is new to me.. But ok I accept that. But you have to see the truth. Their music is very flamenco alike.. 9 of 10 people will tell you that its flamenco what they are playing and not some other genre.. So its as I wrote.. they make it hard for serious flamenco musicians to sell their stuff because this easy listening scale noodeling sells better to the crowd than Soleas and Bulerias. So they influence the development of modern flamenco in a commercial bad way IMO. Listen to the latest Nino Josele CDs... I love Joseles style.. Yes Im a Nino Josele fanboy.. [&:] But these jazzy bloopers he started publishing lately.... are not my taste.. :./

And of course all these selling strategies of the "nuevo" guys are in the middle of a gray area with some controversial fake infos here and there to push the product...



Arash -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:09:53)

ok, now, joking aside!

what is the REAL purpose of this thread?

do you really want to find out the taste of all members here and find out "what they think of all these artists"? and if so, then what ?

or is this simply a

A vs B
B vs C
C vs A
everyone VS everyone
etc..... Thread ?

to have FUN , Stoney ?



John O. -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:11:53)

quote:

doit is always unpredictable


quote:

i think what he said in this thread is deadly serious


It doesn't matter if he's serious, I do respect it as his opinion, yet something about the abrupt way he puts it makes it funny.



John O. -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:14:01)

quote:

Yes Im a Nino Josele fanboy


Where the hell did you get the term "fanboy" from??? It sounds so gay! [:D][:D][:D]



XXX -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:17:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

quote:

Yes Im a Nino Josele fanboy


Where the hell did you get the term "fanboy" from??? It sounds so gay! [:D][:D][:D]



LOOOL!!
Maybe hes inventing it. Or he is "boorifiyed" [:D]



Arash -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:17:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

quote:

doit is always unpredictable


quote:

i think what he said in this thread is deadly serious


It doesn't matter if he's serious, I do respect it as his opinion, yet something about the abrupt way he puts it makes it funny.


i know, i wasn't "deadly serious" either [:D]
and consider, his most shocking posts are after few litres of good german beer,,,,and we both know how good german beer is! [;)]



Arash -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:24:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

quote:

Yes Im a Nino Josele fanboy


Where the hell did you get the term "fanboy" from??? It sounds so gay! [:D][:D][:D]




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Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 13:36:19)

quote:

Where the hell did you get the term "fanboy" from??? It sounds so gay!


lol! I learned it from an american.. [&:]



John O. -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 14:12:59)

Ah, okay! Gay <-> Nerd, close relation [:D]

I do want to see that movie...



John O. -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 14:15:06)

quote:

his most shocking posts are after few litres of good german beer


My favorite was when he somehow was able to connect flamenco with gay people and dogs humping [:D]



henrym3483 -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 14:17:58)

quote:

That's God with a capital G, please be respectful...


I cant listen to God sometimes, listening to him makes me depressed sometimes
simply because listening to him reminds me that there is little chance of me being able to play that material.

then theres other times i do listen, and think he's Paco, im harry and thats ok.
i hate listening to his music and analyzing the hell out of it. talk about a God complex.

listening to canizares i find mind-warping but a good type of mind warping, its like listening to hendrix the first time.

the artists i get the most satisfaction out of listening to in no particuliar order would be tomatito, gerardo nunez, vicente amigo, cepero, moraito, Sabicas, chicuelo.

re strunz and farah and otmar, i find them quite boring

gypsy kings rock and is good feeltime music.



Stu -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 14:32:51)

quote:


I cant listen to God sometimes, listening to him makes me depressed sometimes
simply because listening to him reminds me that there is little chance of me being able to play that material.

then theres other times i do listen, and think he's Paco, im harry and thats ok.
i hate listening to his music and analyzing the hell out of it. talk about a God complex.

listening to canizares i find mind-warping but a good type of mind warping, its like listening to hendrix the first time.

the artists i get the most satisfaction out of listening to in no particuliar order would be tomatito, gerardo nunez, vicente amigo, cepero, moraito, Sabicas, chicuelo.

re strunz and farah and otmar, i find them quite boring

gypsy kings rock and is good feeltime music.


Henry can I use your post as my answer???? its exactly what I would've put anyway....except the Canizares bit. I haven't listened to much from him, but seeing as all our other taste match I willl now![:D]

As for Juan.... well I see you didn't say anything about him! probably a clever move...
I liked his teaching material but dont really even think about him to have an opinion....But It seems he may have gained loads of cred if he pretended to be english and played flamenco? no?



danilo -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 14:35:18)

I have a question.....Is that Esteban famous? Do the europeans know him?
I just youtubed him and had a few great laughs....ugliest guitars I have ever seen...Malagueña played on steel-strings...but all from the heart....of china, i think[:D] (but he was studying with Andrew Segovia, somebody on youtube said, I think thats the american cousin of jonny martin)

oh..and Fondo Flamenco: I would rather call them Fondo del Baño[:D]
soo bad...



henrym3483 -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 14:48:45)

quote:

As for Juan.... well I see you didn't say anything about him! probably a clever move...
I liked his teaching material but dont really even think about him to have an opinion....But It seems he may have gained loads of cred if he pretended to be english and played flamenco? no?


ok i'll be dumb [:D], juan is an ok guy i met him once after his show here in limerick. he brings alot of good artists with him to dance and sing, personally i really enjoyed the show...my own guitar teacher said he would'nt cross the road to see him..[:D]

his materials are good but it annoys me that in some of his books he doesnt credit all the falsetas from the masters ie nino ricardo, montoya,sabicas etc



Arash -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 15:40:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: henrym3483


I cant listen to God sometimes, listening to him makes me depressed sometimes
simply because listening to him reminds me that there is little chance of me being able to play that material.



tomatito, gerardo nunez, chicuelo, etc...... are as hard as pacos stuff to learn and play, in many cases too.
each of them in their own way.



mark indigo -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 15:48:05)

quote:

if he's faking being Spanish – why?


well... i have been rung up by an agent for a gig and the first thing they asked me was "are you spanish?".

I have been asked if i am spanish when out playing. they often seemed to like what they hear more before they ask if i'm spanish than after i tell them i'm not....

and apparently if you got a gig in London in the seventies or eighties you had to speak spanish and pretend you were spanish,

so maybe if it's true that JM is not really spanish then that could be why....




quote:

As I said "fun" thread.


i think it's called "eating the cold porridge of life" or something[&:]



yeah, it's kind of absurd, isn't it?[;)]



John O. -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 15:48:11)

I always found Paco's pieces easier ... LET ME FINISH [:D] ... because he had such a clear, linear way of composing. Often you can play a picado slower, leave a few notes out, change a compás.

Something like Cadencia from Canizares just blows my mind technically, I remember trying some of that stuff years ago and just giving up. Maybe worth another try today.

Also, for me, Paco is the greatest source of ideas for new falsetas, traditional or modern. The only source that comes close for me is Chicuelo.



kozz -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 15:56:27)

quote:

....Paco....bla bla bla...paco....Bla bla bal...God....

Perhaps you can go on a date together with mr.dr.prof.R.Diaz...
Some 3FUN together [8D]



Arash -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 16:00:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

because he had such a clear, linear way of composing. Often you can play a picado slower, leave a few notes out, change a compás.


that also reminds me on Vicente!
sometimes he just totally improvises and changes everything , leaves out notes (or adds some ;-), during a concert....really sometimes i think he doesn't even know himself what he is going to play in the next seconds....but it all sounds perfect and so relaxed !

quote:


Also, for me, Paco is the greatest source of ideas for new falsetas, traditional or modern. The only source that comes close for me is Chicuelo.


also here , don't forget Vicente![:D]
a gold mine for ideas and falsetas to play around with and change them, improvise , make something new out of them. etc



RTC -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 18:08:05)

Juan Martin:
The greatets gifts one can leave behind is teaching. Many on this forum are teachers, and all deserve our thanks. How many of us have begun our flamenco journey with JM white book?
I have never heard a guitar with an accent, so why does JM matters.
Anders or Tom can vereify if guitars have accents.

Hey it is just a fun thread![:D]



Wannabee -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 18:16:27)

Actually you're all wrong, Juan Martin is Scottish;

I have proooffffffffffffffff!!!!!!!!




[;)][:D]



RTC -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 18:29:32)

Wannabee:
I think you have finally resolved the mystery!
The Flamenco World owes you.

Have a good evening and thanks for the clarification.



Ramon Amira -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 19:18:44)

quote:

You can bet if he really was born in Malaga he would trumpet it VERY LOUDLY from the rooftops,


Really, this is poor logic. If he was really born in Malaga, why on earth should he feel it necessary to "trumpet it VERY LOUDLY from the rooftops." Paco de Lucia doesn't trumpet that he is from Algeciras. Sabicas never trumpeted that he was from Pamplona, etc. Why should they? Precisely because that was where they were from, so what need is there to talk about it. To the exact contrary – if he really is English and trying to pass himself off as Spanish – THAT'S when and why he would "trumpet it", etc. Isn't that more logical. But as you point out, he doesn't trumpet it, which he would if he was someone trying to convince the world that he is Spanish when he isn't.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 20:38:39)

Prom critic, I can personally say, it is a common thing for folks to fake where they are from. Regarding spain, for most people, it is a pride thing. Like I know tons of people from latin american countries that try to put on a fake spain accent to cover the their mexican roots or whatever, claiming some relative from spain....that it is in the blood. It is truly a BIG deal to some people. And as one can imagine, being serious about flamenco, the cultural aspects of being spanish, or even Gitano, are even more important. I have met many professional artists who claim to be gitano when they have no gypsy blood, and have met others that fake an accent from andalucia when they are from a northern part, etc etc.... the REASONS why someone like Juan martin and his market machine would want to do something like that too, is obvious to me.

having said all that, I choose not to admit my feelings about if or if not JM is true cien por cientos andaluz or not. I have heard him play and that is enough for me. I feel that guitar players do have an accent. That is all about how you can pick up on say Jerez style different from players from Granada say. It is an "accent" on the playing, same as speaking or singing. It can also be "faked" once you can recognize what the details are.

Ricardo



GuitarVlog -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 21:45:38)






BTW, has anyone walloped Armik yet? (I know. I know. Shooting fish in a barrel.)

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GuitarVlog -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 16 2009 21:51:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Prom critic, I can personally say, it is a common thing for folks to fake where they are from.


I read that Adam del Monte from Spain is really Adam Kofler from Tel Aviv.
[8|]



mark indigo -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 17 2009 2:08:23)

quote:

Paco de Lucia doesn't trumpet that he is from Algeciras.


Los Chiquitos de Algeciras

Ramon de Algeciras

Pepe de Algeciras

i was gonna let that speak for itself, but if that's not enough, read any biog, it's common knowledge, there is no doubt or dispute


quote:

Sabicas never trumpeted that he was from Pamplona, etc


well, he wouldn't have done, would he, not being from Andalucia?![:D]

but just to add, it seems common knowledge that that is where he was born



gj Michelob -> RE: What do you think of????? (Dec. 17 2009 5:16:25)

quote:

I feel that guitar players do have an accent.


'worth quoting.



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