MANITAS DE PLATA (Full Version)

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Ramon Amira -> MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 19 2009 19:42:15)

No, no – you won't have to go out and get drunk after you read this! I was recently discussing Manitas de Plata with some guitarists with respect to playing picado. I had a specific question about him that I'll ask in another post. But this got me thinking about Manitas de Plata, and about the time I reviewed him. When I was a critic in the seventies I reviewed just about all of them at one time or another – Sabicas, Juan Serrano, Pepe Romero, even (gasp) Carlos Montoya, and many others. The opening line of my review of Manitas de Plata has been called a classic, but only you guys on this forum can really appreciate it, so I thought I would share it with you. Now Manitas never knew what he was going to play next – not which toque, and not what he was going to play next within any given toque. I'll have to give him that – whatever else one can say about him, he was genuinely playing extemporaneously. So I was sent to review him, I believe it was at Royce Hall at UCLA. Normally one would expect a printed program, but no, there was no program whatsoever. So I sat through the whole evening of his usual stuff, and went and wrote my review. This was the opening line: "Manitas de Plata came to Royce Hall last night. For some reason he failed to provide any program for the flamenco. As things turned out, this was just as well, since he failed to provide any flamenco for the program."



kozz -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 19 2009 23:35:35)

So he did well not providing information to the people who always "expect" something instead of listening with an open mind and heart.



Ron.M -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 0:20:48)

Manitas was OK. [:D]

He just played all the toques at the same time. [:D]... (sometimes in compás, most times not.)

He was a good entertainer though and never claimed to play Flamenco, but his own "version" of it. [:D]

I wonder how he's doing now, he must be very old.

cheers,

Ron



frhout -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 0:23:25)

For what I have seen over the years, there is rarely a printed programme for a flamenco performance. Even if there is one, it normally contains a brief introduction of the guitarist, and a selection of what the musician MAY play, but never in the proper order. I consider myself lucky not to have to dig out another £9 or £10 for a programme like in most classical concerts. One also rarely sees flamenco guitarists wearing black suits and bow ties. I have seen Paco Pena wearing a jumper similar to Richard Branson's. Paco de Lucia usually wears a 2-piece without a jacket.

Manitas is 88 years old, born 7 August 1921 in Sete, France. More than 83 records produced and over 93 millions albums sold of which I myself have two. He last played in public on 8 August this year and received a standing ovation. One source claims that he is the greateast living flamenco guitarist but he remains controversial for academic purists in Spain due to his illiteracy.

Apparently Salvador Dali said of him, "When Manitas plays, the firefighters catch fire." After Picasso heard his music, Pablo also apparently conceded Manitas was worth more than he. Here in France, it will surely be headline news on telly when the Day comes. He is also a great friend of great people like Alain Delon and Brigitte Bardot. Look at Youtube how Brigitte caresses her own hair and sucks her finger when listening to Manitas. It's a classic display of seduction.



John O. -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 1:33:54)

quote:

One source claims that he is the greateast living flamenco guitarist but he remains controversial for academic purists in Spain due to his illiteracy.


I don't dislike Manitas de Plata, I respect what he did, even if it's not my taste. I only dislike misleading quotes such as the above.



frhout -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 2:13:56)

I agree with you. Flamenco remains a minority art even in Spain. But in most records shops under the flamenco section, we can find not a lot more than Paco de Lucia and Manitas de Plata, or some other uninteresting compilation.



michel -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 5:51:44)

quote:

caresses her own hair and sucks her finger when listening to Manitas

...well i think i got definitly the wrong guitar technique because i never saw a woman doing this when listening to my playing [:D]



danilo -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 6:40:22)

I had a time when I was collecting old Manitas records. In the end he plays the same pieces on all off them.....but some of them are sooo good and intense (some other are a bit boring)...The picasso album is one of my favoutites.
Sometimes I play at parties of my parents and the Gallop de la Carmague (the piece he`s playing in front of la Bardot) is always the one people like the most (of course no Flamencos...[:D] )
But still I love Manitas!!!



Ricardo -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 6:45:50)

quote:

This was the opening line: "Manitas de Plata came to Royce Hall last night. For some reason he failed to provide any program for the flamenco. As things turned out, this was just as well, since he failed to provide any flamenco for the program."


Well that was cute, but to any aficionado of the genre of Rumba from Arles, you just come off as yet another snobby flamenco purist. Of course, the taste of manitas is often not good in his interpretations of true flamenco palos, and his compas often way off, his action too low and playing still dirtier than Nino Ricardo's, but it is still flamenco guitar he is playing. He obviously did not learn the proper way in Andalucia, but his Rumba was the main thing. He was great at rumba, and that is actually considered a flamenco palo by most aficionados. Of course, starting with him and his cousin the singer Jose Reyes, you can admit there is a genre of Catalan rumba that is quite separate from the big umbrella of flamenco songs that it came from. So "rumberos" are not really "flamencos". Same for some interpretors of Fandangos.

It is shame that the world at large did not really understand the difference between what Manitas was doing vs other flamenco guitar soloists, but what is more flamenco or not really ends up becoming a taste issue. At this stage, I prefer not to generalize if I can help it. Rumba is flamenco to me, and Manitas was a great rumbero, I can't slam him too hard cuz his solea was off. He and Jose Reyes used to do Siguiryas and it was not so bad as you would think. Also Fandangos. Farina was one of the greatest fandango singers, but not really a "flamenco" like Caracol say. Cante from Extremadura is still flamenco to me, though not andaluz. Bulerias can come from places other than jerez....etc etc....finally my personal tastes can take me to Jerez where I personally feel flamenco is the most pure and old.

Ricardo



Ramon Amira -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 6:56:05)

I actually had and have nothing against Manitas de Plata – that opening was not as serious as it may sound out of context. It was just a line I couldn't resist because of the lack of a program. As I recall, the rest of the review had a few good things to say as well. By the way, I never attended a single concert in my life, as critic or just plain citizen, including flamenco, where there was not a printed program. Also I have never heard of having to pay for a program. Is that commonplace in Europe? Anyway, I own probably seven or eight Manitas de Plata LPs, and occasionally put one on. And I've watched him on YouTube. As Ron said, he was highly entertaining, and there were frequently long stretches where he would both stay in compas and also not suddenly switch back and forth between techniques etc., and during stretches like that I found nothing wrong with his playing. Some of his best playing can be seen on YouTube in that interview with Denise Glaser. A helluva good looking woman, by the way – but I digress.



BarkellWH -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 7:33:12)

Your comment that you reviewed all the prominent flamenco guitarists, even "(gasp) Carlos Montoya," reflected, yet again, the contempt held by many in the flamenco community for Carlos Montoya, a contempt that I have never understood. Of course, he was rejected by his uncle, the great Ramon Montoya, and he gets criticized for using too much ligado and tremolo, for not keeping compas, as well as for being a showman. But Sabicas used a lot of tremolo as well. And as for being a showman, Montoya introduced many people (including me, 49 years ago!) to the magnificent sound of flamenco guitar.

Ricardo described those who criticize Manitas de Plata as coming off as just snobby flamenco purists. I'm wondering if the same holds true for those who criticize Carlos Montoya. Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 7:50:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH


Ricardo described those who criticize Manitas de Plata as coming off as just snobby flamenco purists. I'm wondering if the same holds true for those who criticize Carlos Montoya. Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Bill


Well, Carlos was another where his interpretations were in questionable taste. And the quality of recording not always so great. Truth is, hardly any of these guys were reconized in spain cuz of the Civil war and fact they made their commercial recordings and concerts, outside of spain (Sabicas, Carlos, Manitas, Juan Serrano, Escudero, E. Sanlucar, Carlos Ramos, etc etc Even Paco Peña). Meanwhile the figuras of guitar were mainly accompanists of cante residing in spain (R. Mantoya, Borull, N. Ricardo, N. de Huelva, Melchor, Morao, Parilla, Diego del Gastor, Cepero, eventually PDL). They did not know about or care much about the big name solistas (solo guitarists), until the records started coming back to spain.

Having said that, you have to understand that even though Carlos was filling concert halls in USA, artistically he did not make as huge an impact as Manitas did in France on the gitanos. Manitas is a titanic figure of the Rumba Genre...his children ended up forming part of the Gipsy Kings whom need no intro as to their impact on the music biz. No program needed there either[;)].

I would say, criticizing both carlos and manitas from just the flamenco perspective is not totally fair. Anyway, at least Carlos could play for dancers and singers and keep compas when necessary. But he was no Maestro or figura. But Manitas can be thought of as a maestro and figura of RUMBA.

Ricardo



Ramon Amira -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 8:24:25)

As I recall – in my review of Carlos Montoya, I pointed out the usual criticisms, which you allude to, but I also recall the review not being entirely negative, nor was my review of Manitas de Plata entirely negative. Little in life is all black and white. I don't think it shows "contempt" to point out what I had perceived as negative aspects of Manitas de Plata's and Carlos Montoya's playing – after all, I was being paid to render my opinion. I did so in what I feel was a fair and balanced manner. I also don't think it's being a "purist" to hope for a flamenco guitarist to keep the compas. I do feel that both of these guitarists have been criticized somewhat more harshly than their playing merited, possibly attributable to envy at the enormous success both of them enjoyed. And I don't think it can be denied that Carlos Montoya generated more interest in flamenco around the entire world than any flamenco guitarist in history. Still, that doesn't negate certain negative aspects of their playing, but in any event, I'm not sure all of this is especially important in the scheme of eternity, and as I said, I still enjoy listening to both.



BarkellWH -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 9:16:18)

Agreed!



frhout -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 12:17:37)

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong. Most classical concerts in England have programmes with quite a hefty charge, for what it is, in venues like the Royal Albert Hall, Wigmore Hall, Sadlers' Well etc. I went to a PDL concert in a theatre along Tottenham Court Road in the '80s, two more in France, there was never any programme. Another at the Barbican performed by a big troupe called Ramon Villa, no programme either. The only one I remember is a Paco Pena concert, with a programme which cost £2.00, a bargain. But there was nothing much in it apart from a brief introduction of Paco which we have read many times round. There was also a list of palos which Paco may play. I remember clearly that I was checking the programme to see which toque Paco was playing, there was no point, the names were not in order. Once we are familiar with flamenco, we should know what he's playing. Flamenco concerts are not really for the uninitiated. It helps if we've heard a lot of LPs or CDs beforehand. How many times the audience started their applause after the first Sevillanas falseta, believing it was all over, again after the second falseta, and the third. After the fourth (maybe the last falseta of the piece), the audience hesitated for an extra couple of seconds before their applause, just not to get embarrassed, again! I believe most of us have been embarrassed by this Sevillanas phenomenon at the beginning, I certainly was, although not anymore.



Ramon Amira -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 12:51:54)

I believe you. I have never been to a concert in Europe, but as I said, I have never been to a concert in the United States that did not have a free printed program. Obviously I don't need a program to know what they're playing, but it is customary in America to provide one. And yes, frequently a flamenco concert is played all out of order from the printed program. In fact, that is how I came to be hired as a flamenco guitar critic. I'll tell that story next time.



el ted -> [Deleted] (Nov. 20 2009 12:56:06)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 2 2009 12:26:47



Escribano -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 13:10:02)

quote:

Whoah,,,, steady as she goes lads....Americans know everything...


Cut the ****, thanks. I thought you were taking a break.

I have "reviewed" a couple of flamenco shows in London and they both provided programmes. The running order made them somewhat redundant though. [:D]

http://www.deflamenco.com/actuaciones/tomatitoahall/indexi.jsp



danilo -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 20 2009 14:58:06)

" Just the ubiquitous flamenco chairs, arranged in a shallow curve. Do they take them on tour with them in flight cases?"
I love that, Escribano!!
By they way:Cool critics!!



Stoney -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 24 2009 10:58:59)

quote:

.............for not keeping compas,


This seems to be a sticking point for some folks. To Compas or not to Compas.

Is is that he didn't follow compas, couldn't follow compas or wouldn't follow compas?

There seems to be various camps here on the site and apparantly no one wants to come out and say the obvious. COMPAS is everything. Hell, it's not even a really FLAMENCO concept for that matter. It just means playing in time. Santana does it and he's not even a FLamenco.

Although I do enjoy some players who play Flamencoish stuff and Nuevo Flamenco there is absolutely no comparison between those that CAN and DO play compas and those that CAN"T and DON'T. Just search on youtube for Flamenco guitar. All the Hacks are barely in compas (and coincidentally also have crappy technique) and the guys that shine are guys that have the COMPAS nailed.

Likes and dislikes are one thing. Everyone has their own taste. But if you call someone who is greatly concerned about compas a snob because they stay away from players like Carlos Montoya or Manitas de Plata (which I absolutely do since I aspire to play at least in compas and with some semblance of correct form) then don't be surprised if you end up considered a HACK.

Hell, it is the FORO FLAMENCO not the "Noodling around on a Phrygian Mode Forum"

Stoney



XXX -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 24 2009 13:30:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoney
There seems to be various camps here on the site and apparantly no one wants to come out and say the obvious. COMPAS is everything. Hell, it's not even a really FLAMENCO concept for that matter. It just means playing in time. Santana does it and he's not even a FLamenco.


Thats a cool way to see it. Just like there are rules in other styles too, why should flamenco be different in this? Its is constitutional for this style.

In the end, isnt this discussion of Compas or not, Liebert and Nuevo mainly an internet/media thing? I doubt that flamencos care for these things. Only if the are asked to play a Liebert tune i guess [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 25 2009 5:58:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoney

quote:

.............for not keeping compas,


This seems to be a sticking point for some folks. To Compas or not to Compas.

Is is that he didn't follow compas, couldn't follow compas or wouldn't follow compas?

There seems to be various camps here on the site and apparantly no one wants to come out and say the obvious. COMPAS is everything. Hell, it's not even a really FLAMENCO concept for that matter. It just means playing in time. Santana does it and he's not even a FLamenco.

Although I do enjoy some players who play Flamencoish stuff and Nuevo Flamenco there is absolutely no comparison between those that CAN and DO play compas and those that CAN"T and DON'T. Just search on youtube for Flamenco guitar. All the Hacks are barely in compas (and coincidentally also have crappy technique) and the guys that shine are guys that have the COMPAS nailed.

Likes and dislikes are one thing. Everyone has their own taste. But if you call someone who is greatly concerned about compas a snob because they stay away from players like Carlos Montoya or Manitas de Plata (which I absolutely do since I aspire to play at least in compas and with some semblance of correct form) then don't be surprised if you end up considered a HACK.

Hell, it is the FORO FLAMENCO not the "Noodling around on a Phrygian Mode Forum"

Stoney


Good points there stoney. I would like to add though, that compas as we talk about it here is a specific type of rhythm, not just general tempo and groove. For example, when it comes to Rumba, Manitas has great compas. Ottmar, not so good yet both guys might be perfectly in time and grooving. It has to do with more specifics of the type of grooves and accents and meter. Dimeola has an amazing sense of time and technique to express it. But when he plays with Paco, he often feels the CLAVE different,, in a more latin way then paco. In one obvious case he was actually CROSSED in the compas and considered out of compas. (That poveratti concert with paco and John playing Mediteranean sundance....Dimeola was crossed right at the start because he doesn't usually feel the groove accents like paco). It would not be fair to say he has bad rhythm, just that he does not really understand flamenco compas. But that project was a fusion so it is sort of ok.

So when interpreting something like say a Solea or Fandango but with a very elastic tempo, the taste of the player reveals in his interpretation, how well he knows the FLAMENCO compas. If you dont' really know the meter and accents that would go with say a dancer, you might think two players like Manitas vs Sabicas both understand the same thing about compas, and stretch freely. Manitas has a decent groove, but does not understand the meter or accents of the other palos (other than rumba).

Likewise many people think Ottmar or some other nuevo guys "just play rumbas", just cuz they use a 4 beat rhythm. Compas, even of Rumba is more complex than that, and anyone who is good at rumba would not call what those guys do "rumba".

Ricardo



mrMagenta -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 25 2009 6:45:06)

quote:

Is is that he didn't follow compas, couldn't follow compas or wouldn't follow compas?


Based on the friends he kept - picasso, dalí etc, could it be he wanted to keep a loose relation to compas/forms and tradition - in the same 'unfettered by tradition'-spirit as the art movements of the time? Perhaps he played simple straight flamenco, in compas, prior to 'finding his voice' and getting his breakthrough?

Just thinking aloud. I haven't listened to Manitas in some time.



Ricardo -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 25 2009 7:07:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrMagenta

quote:

Is is that he didn't follow compas, couldn't follow compas or wouldn't follow compas?


Based on the friends he kept - picasso, dalí etc, could it be he wanted to keep a loose relation to compas/forms and tradition - in the same 'unfettered by tradition'-spirit as the art movements of the time? Perhaps he played simple straight flamenco, in compas, prior to 'finding his voice' and getting his breakthrough?

Just thinking aloud. I haven't listened to Manitas in some time.


Interesting idea...but no. It is clear with things like bulerias and Solea, he was TRYING to follow the compas, he had good tempo and groove,but no understanding of the basic form. He improvised at will, but very normal sounding falsetas, but would eat beats randomly, and sometimes repeatedly cuz that is how he learned it...wrong. He just could not feel the phrasing like he felt rumbas. He probably would have been good if he had a teacher from Spain to keep him in line. Picasso and Dali could both draw a normal picture if they so chose.

Ricardo



gerundino63 -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 26 2009 0:47:20)

A while back I was at a gitano party in the Camargue, I was invited there while I played rumba's with two frends on the streets in Saintes maries de la mer.
In the night some of the Baliardo family came too and we all ended up playing together. ( Very nice to experiance[:D])

I asked them : whell, do you also play flamenco?" They said to me : "this ís flamenco!"
Than I thought, who am I to judge, they live their live in a caravan travelling trough europe...........

Also I heared some "real" flamenco ......
Here are two examples from Nanasso Baliardo, he was a member from the Hermanos Baliardo. The Baliardo family where the better guitarists, the Reyes the better singers, together they formed the Gipsy Kings later....


Watch the alzapua at the end!

and here!


Nanasso plays an old Gerundino here....

Peter



Doitsujin -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 26 2009 10:30:11)

Guitarrists who need promotion from painters are usually bad. Good players dont need that.

Another thing is... the more names of known other artists are written in the curriculum of a guitarrist... the worser the guitarrist.



Ron.M -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 26 2009 10:59:23)

quote:

the more names of known other artists are written in the curriculum of a guitarrist... the worser the guitarrist.


I'm very impressed by your cynicism at such a young age...

It took me ages to learn that!

You'll go far, my boy... [:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



edgar884 -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 27 2009 8:06:29)

Funny thing, I found an old record at the thrift store that has ten albums of classical guitar on it.

I spent a half hour typing the names of the songs but it got lost when I hit enter.

This box set I found has John Williams Segovia Julian Bream and some Lagoya dude in it.

It's so funny that he is on the cover and is the most out of tune obscure guitarist in the box set. I listened to all the recordings it has Bach Mozart Villa Lobos Scarlatti you name it, and then you get to Manitas and it's really bad What can I say.

Heres the Photo.

You guys will dig this man.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



aeolus -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 27 2009 8:15:50)

quote:

It's so funny that he is on the cover and is the most out of tune obscure guitarist

Manitas was anything but obscure especially compared to classical players with the possible exception of Segovia. Being the BF of Bridget Bardot gave him instant street cred and recognition.



Ron.M -> RE: MANITAS DE PLATA (Nov. 27 2009 8:29:27)

quote:

I spent a half hour typing the names of the songs but it got lost when I hit enter


It's a bummer when that happens, Ed.
To be on the safe side, always highlight your text and copy, before hitting the send button.

I think that's Manitas' first album.

Whoever decided to include a Manitas album in a boxed set of Classical guitar pieces needs their head examined.

cheers,

Ron



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