RE: soundportparty in my patio (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 12:44:03)

quote:

I did my first experiments with extra sound ports in the 60's and it wasn't a new idea then. In truth just about any innovation you can think of has already been tried by somebody


Except fror "The "Sonoform" soundboard, "an all resin based soundboard having vastly superior characteristics over the problematic Spruce and Cedar preferences amongst traditional builders....."

AND it is completely consistent throughout the whole sheet!

It is readily workable and is completely resilient to humidity effects.

This coupled with the "Everset" stress-bearing inlay in the neck, ensuring absolutely no movement under all temperature conditions, leaving tonal response and playability up to the ingenuity and experience of the builder as it always has been."

Extract from "The Los Angeles Times", April 2018.

The future is coming! [:D]

cheers,

Ron



kovachian -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 12:53:52)

Ooooo time to get really fancy



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Ron.M -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 13:01:13)

Hey kov,

Why does that look slightly pornographic? [:D]

cheers,

Ron



Mike_Kinny -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 13:35:58)

quote:

back to topic, i admit i only read the first and last pages of the conversation so someone might have asked or talked about this, but would the effect be the same if the soundport wasn't just a hole, but something more fancy, like several small holes forming a certain shape?


Based on my experiments as the soundport gets bigger you also begin to hear more noise. So I make several smaller holes instead of one big.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=106434&p=2&tmode=1&smode=1



Tom Blackshear -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 15:40:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

quote:



I can take a little sadistic humor, Amigo but I think it might be appropriate if you apologize for the crack about Manuel Reyes, as he is the most well know builder of flamenco guitars in the world.


Relax TomB. The crack was at you, not Reyes, just as any of my replies to Prof. Ruben had nothing to do with Paco de Lucia.

Do you really think that Manuel Reyes is THE most well known builder of flamenco guitars IN THE WORLD? ........ perhaps in your world.

Sometimes its good to get out of your own head.


Let's put it like this, I think Manuel Reyes is a living legend and deserving of proper respect, which is not to say he should be linked to my name on this list when I'm being raked over the coals. I just think it's a little inappropriate.

I'll look around and try to come up with the article that Brune and I wrote for the GAL.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 16:54:15)

TomB,

Reyes is indeed a living legend and I have played quite a number of his guitars and even sold one 1987 Blanca for a dear friend of mine who needed to get a fair price for the guitar after being offered half the going rate for one of that vintage by a well known guitar dealer...............rrrrrrrrrip. [8D]

There was no offense meant to Manuel Reyes. I have nothing but respect for his work and your work for that matter. My comments and "raking over the coals" has way more to do with your personality than anything else. I think most people around here understand that pretty well.

If what is necessary is a public apology, then so be it...... I offer here my sincerest apologies to the legendary master luthier Manuel Reyes for linking his name to Tom Blackshear in such a silly discussion about sound ports and bizarre shirt designs worn by our favorite professor.

Of course I realize that we in fact are standing on shoulders of giants but that doesn't mean that we have to stand by and listen to someone insult our friend's work without defense. That just wouldn't be very good behavior for Texas boy now would it?

Can we get back to discussing sound ports now?

Perhaps we can start a new thread dedicated to you insulting nice people who just want to express themselves. Whenever they are feeling too high and mighty or things in their personal lives have been too easy, they could just check in and say hello and you could tell them all that is wrong with them in the various degradory ways that seem natural to you and that way we can keep it contained in one space instead of hijaking other people's threads like Anders' discussion of sound ports. I promise to be the first to post in that thread......... WHAAACK, "Yes Sir, may I have another?"

We ALL get the point that you don't like sound ports. We get it.

Peace



Tom Blackshear -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 18:45:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

TomB,

Reyes is indeed a living legend and I have played quite a number of his guitars and even sold one 1987 Blanca for a dear friend of mine who needed to get a fair price for the guitar after being offered half the going rate for one of that vintage by a well known guitar dealer...............rrrrrrrrrip. [8D]

There was no offense meant to Manuel Reyes. I have nothing but respect for his work and your work for that matter. My comments and "raking over the coals" has way more to do with your personality than anything else. I think most people around here understand that pretty well.

If what is necessary is a public apology, then so be it...... I offer here my sincerest apologies to the legendary master luthier Manuel Reyes for linking his name to Tom Blackshear in such a silly discussion about sound ports and bizarre shirt designs worn by our favorite professor.

Of course I realize that we in fact are standing on shoulders of giants but that doesn't mean that we have to stand by and listen to someone insult our friend's work without defense. That just wouldn't be very good behavior for Texas boy now would it?

Can we get back to discussing sound ports now?

Perhaps we can start a new thread dedicated to you insulting nice people who just want to express themselves. Whenever they are feeling too high and mighty or things in their personal lives have been too easy, they could just check in and say hello and you could tell them all that is wrong with them in the various degradory ways that seem natural to you and that way we can keep it contained in one space instead of hijaking other people's threads like Anders' discussion of sound ports. I promise to be the first to post in that thread......... WHAAACK, "Yes Sir, may I have another?"

We ALL get the point that you don't like sound ports. We get it.

Peace



One thing and I'll let it go; I understand that you take offense at my disagreement with sound ports.

And anyone who promotes sounds ports to sell guitars is fine with me. But I draw the line with character assassination if I don’t agree with someone about a technical facility regarding sound. I try never to go there.

When I tune a guitar just right it gives certain vibrations that a player would feel with his senses without extra volume needed for support, imo.

I've let you pick on my character a little since I'm a pretty forgiving guy but rest assured that my experiments show me that sound ports are for the very few as a sub-culture, not in the main stream of guitar tradition.

I'm a strict traditionalist and I supply guitars to those who are traditionalists. Sound ports are not new but the basis for the new port craze came from Roger Thurman who patented his ports and advertised them through professional players, and some makers, etc.

I believe Brune may have used Roger's port design a few times. But ports aren't new, they could be about 10 years old or more concerning this new port design. So I've been there before and discussed these things with Roger about his patented ports.

I chose not to use them, not because they don't work but because I'm of the opinion that ports get in the way of my aesthetic designs and provoke negative qualities rather than add a better sound. I think I've expressed that on this list.

But I've also added that ports are for those who care to experiment with them, and this allows you or anyone else on this list to understand my sentiments for experimentation. There will always be room for this.

enough said.........



JasonMcGuire -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 20:46:42)

TomB,

Once again, I only take offense at the way in which you choose to express your opinions. Not the opinions themselves.

I care much less about when and who invented ports. I just know that I really like the way they sound in my guitars.

Tradition is a wonderful thing. One thing I have noticed about tradition is that those that have a hand in creating tradition are usually very receptive to change, are generally very easy to get a long with and posess a certain security about their place in the scheme of things...... those that merely protect tradition from the inevitable march of time, tying it to the ground in an attempt to fight the natural evolution of things tend to be the opposite.



kozz -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 20 2009 23:47:16)

What would happen if you cover the soundport with something like ricepaper, or something stronger? SOmething which acts as a membrane.

Matthias Ziegler, a flute player, has a special made headjoint with an extra hole in it covered with paper and a mechanism to lower the paper so it'll resonates more.

Will the same apply for guitars?



Florian -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 2:30:59)

well...i left my guitar in the shop...the guy said i should leave it over night ...cause hes put some reinforcer solution for when he makes the hole he told me the name but i forghot...the stuff they use of airoplanes and spaceships (hes worried about cracks) against my begging of him doing it on the spot lol...hopefully tomarow its done

i made him give me a guitar to practice with all he had that i could take was a steel string ....the neck is so narrow i dont know how people play this things lol...but it will be ok for exercises if i get desperate and need to do something with my hands


just to be safe i got pop corn, beer and dvds for tonight to avoid boredom...just gonna get drunk watch dvds and go to sleep extremly early since theres nothing to do...just dosent feel right without a proper guitar in the house



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 2:58:32)

or you can go to a guitar shop and buy the worst possible nylon strung guitar for about 100 bucks :) - always good to have a backup :)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 3:15:16)

x



Tom Blackshear -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 5:05:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

TomB,

Once again, I only take offense at the way in which you choose to express your opinions. Not the opinions themselves.

I care much less about when and who invented ports. I just know that I really like the way they sound in my guitars.

Tradition is a wonderful thing. One thing I have noticed about tradition is that those that have a hand in creating tradition are usually very receptive to change, are generally very easy to get a long with and posess a certain security about their place in the scheme of things...... those that merely protect tradition from the inevitable march of time, tying it to the ground in an attempt to fight the natural evolution of things tend to be the opposite.


I understand what you mean but I think it's fair to say that not all people agree with certain facets of building principle or new ideas that some builders are curious about.

In the 40 years of my search for the unique voice in this instrument, I have come to the conclusion that the Spanish guitar builders appear to have reached a balance between tradition and design and are moving no further with it. Their understanding is that the traditional guitar is a completed work, and they deal with it in an appropriate manner, contenting themselves with making small adjustments on the inside to find ways to improve its tonal quality.

But I have corresonded with Amalia Ramirez about the double top with Nomex and she said that she would check it out to see how it works as an experiment for her guitars. I have yet to check back with her on this project but she should have some idea about it by now.

One thing about guitar builders in general is that if some new technical facility shows promise to improve their sales, then it's a normal response to try it out to see if there is truly a point for better sales trends.

Brune said that there is some indication that the double top may last long enough to gain a player's moneys worth. I think this could mean that builders may not see it as a lasting value for say, 50 years, but that it would have enough time to pay for itself in value toward the owner's life span.

But I have yet to figure how a double top would stand up under the pressure of a flamenco player :-)

I've talked with some of the builders of these trends and some of them have told me they had to go back to traditional guitar styles because their customers demanded it. So, while I think these new trends are showing promise to some extent, I believe that the normal flow of things will remain, for the greater percentage, traditional.

You may think this is negative talk but I believe it is reasonable to understand that we are experiencing new innovations in a time frame that has not determined a place in history, yet :-)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 8:19:51)

x



Anders Eliasson -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 8:27:28)

x



Escribano -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 8:44:36)

quote:

Why dont you just take a break from the forum. You are truly an annoying disrespectfull person and we´d do a lot better without you


Cool it guys. I like a debate from two opposing points of view.

I don't personally read Tom's comments as disrespectful but I can see how they might be perceived that way i.e. when he talks about why builders would want to put in a sound port (to improve a bad guitar build, to increase sales etc.)

Can you agree to differ and move on please?



Mike_Kinny -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 8:46:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

One thing about guitar builders in general is that if some new technical facility shows promise to improve their sales, then it's a normal response to try it out to see if there is truly a point for better sales trends.


Now you´ve said this b*llsh*tt enough, so shut up.

The reason that some of us is making soundports and other things is that we are trying to make a better instrument. Not just promote sales. We like our work, we are enthusiastic about the possibilities that the instrument gives us. We are not like you, completely locked into what is a box full of conservative rules.
The only thing that helps sales are making better guitars or do you think that the players are stupid?

Why dont you just take a break from the forum. You are truly an annoying disrespectfull person and we´d do a lot better without you[:'(]


Please Anders keep it civilized. Your use of less-than-polite language is unpleasant to me as a member too.

I don't find Tom's posts as annoying as you claim to be and I believe he has the same rights to be in this forum as you.

Regards, Mike



Tom Blackshear -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 8:50:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

I have come to the conclusion that the Spanish guitar builders appear to have reached a balance between tradition and design and are moving no further with it. Their understanding is that the traditional guitar is a completed work, and they deal with it in an appropriate manner, contenting themselves with making small adjustments on the inside to find ways to improve its tonal quality.


Have you ever been to Spain? Because what you are saying is as always extremely far away from reality. I´ve been here for many years, I know a lot of Spanish builders and they are all trying to find new ways.
As always, you are living inside a little bubble, and the images you think you get of the world are just reflexions from the inside of that bubble. I think thats why you think the rest of the world is like you. Fortunately you are very wrong.


I was in Madrid in 1965 for 3 months which was mainly taking lessons from Paco Del Gastor; actually gleaning new music material. But I understand that makers in Spain look for different approaches to modify their instruments to be better.

You failed to consider my association/correspondance with Amalia Ramirez about this in the same post so I think you are just looking for an argument, which I'll not give you anymore on this list. Nice try though :-)

And as I've already said, the majority of makers seem to be in traditional mode for the greater percentage of the market.

And I've already agreed that if you want to promote the sound ports for your guitars, feel free to do it, as there are a significant percentage of makers that will be motivated to look into these modifications to see if they can improve their work.

As for me, I chose to try and improve my guitar's sound from the inside, relating to how the fan brace patterns formulate tone and projection.

But I also see makers like Amalia, and Contreras who are tinkering with some of these systems, especially the sandwich tops.

But I think the majority of players world wide will not feel the need, as they are mainly amatures and not that motivated to need these new innovations. I believe that tradition plays a very strong part of what players will accept, over the long run.

I've had some success with my own experiments which I have incorporated into my work, so I always encourage experiments to find a better way.

Please feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.



kovachian -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 9:50:51)

Anders, care to step outside for a cigarette? It's ok man!



GuitarVlog -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 10:13:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
Sound ports are not new but the basis for the new port craze came from Roger Thurman who patented his ports and advertised them through professional players, and some makers, etc.

I believe Brune may have used Roger's port design a few times. But ports aren't new, they could be about 10 years old or more concerning this new port design. So I've been there before and discussed these things with Roger about his patented ports.


Thurman? The guy who came up with these?

I had seen LoPrinzi experiment with them for a while. He doesn't offer the "Nova Futura" anymore. Not that ever considered buying one.



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Tom Blackshear -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 11:15:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
Sound ports are not new but the basis for the new port craze came from Roger Thurman who patented his ports and advertised them through professional players, and some makers, etc.

I believe Brune may have used Roger's port design a few times. But ports aren't new, they could be about 10 years old or more concerning this new port design. So I've been there before and discussed these things with Roger about his patented ports.


Thurman? The guy who came up with these?

I had seen LoPrinzi experiment with them for a while. He doesn't offer the "Nova Futura" anymore. Not that ever considered buying one.





Yes, this is Roger's original port design that he had patented. As it was, the ports were too out of place concerning my aesthetics; even though they created a lot of volume. And it wasn't too much later that Bob Ruck came up with his ports; considerably smaller, that were of interest to Kenny Hill and other builders who were wanting to improve their work or offer something new and exciting for the discriminating player.

Yet, to my understanding, not all of their customers wanted the ports. I realize that this is personal taste, so I believe these builders do supply guitars with or without the ports. In any case the ports seem to be a benefit to the player and for this reason alone, I'm in favor of them. I don't care for the aesthetics but this is not the point.

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Anders Eliasson -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 11:19:07)

I´m leaving this thread. I´ve been asked to cool down. This is the only way I can do what you want me to do. I cannot stand Mr Blackshear and the way he acts and I´m not the kind of guy who shuts up.
But because you guys want me to shut up, I will leave this thread. OK

I can only say that I´m glad I´m not the only one who has expressed his negative opinions about Mr Blackshear and the he behaves here.

So its all yours, Mr Blackshear. You can continue in peace telling people that soundports or whatever is not in your little world is BAD. You can continue with your disrespecfull little hints about other builders etc.
Go ahead and enjoy yourself.

Anders



Tom Blackshear -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 11:32:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I´m leaving this thread. I´ve been asked to cool down. This is the only way I can do what you want me to do. I cannot stand Mr Blackshear and the way he acts and I´m not the kind of guy who shuts up.
But because you guys want me to shut up, I will leave this thread. OK

I can only say that I´m glad I´m not the only one who has expressed his negative opinions about Mr Blackshear and the he behaves here.

So its all yours, Mr Blackshear. You can continue in peace telling people that soundports or whatever is not in your little world is BAD. You can continue with your disrespecfull little hints about other builders etc.
Go ahead and enjoy yourself.

Anders


Anders, if things I said upset you then perhaps I could have been softer in my dialog with you and the other members here. I realize that I'm a little blunt on occasion as this is part of who I am as a person. But I sincerely meant no disrepect to you or any other builder. Quite frankly, I'm impressed with your knowledge and skills, and if you had not been here, then there's a chance I wouldn't have had the challenge to dialog at all. So, I hope you'll accept my apologies as they are sincerely given to you as the talented builder that you are. There is no way for me to mend what has already been done except to say I'm sorry, and I hope you will forgive me.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 12:06:49)

quote:


. So, I hope you'll accept my apologies as they are sincerely given to you as the talented builder that you are. There is no way for me to mend what has already been done except to say I'm sorry, and I hope you will forgive me.


That to me sounds like a sincere apology Anders. Even though I am on your side in this debate, I must say that it takes a lot to offer an apology like the one TomB just offered. Take a day off from the thread if you need to, but lets continue the debate like gentlemen from here on out. We have all gotten our points across and we all have aired our grievances about each others character flaws. All there is left to do on this thread is to answer questions about the original topic. Sound ports.



Aadi -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 14:11:13)

quote:

All there is left to do on this thread is to answer questions about the original topic. Sound ports.


Excellent, because I have a question for you. What changes do you notice in what you hear out of the port on the bass side when the port on the treble side is covered/uncovered? I'm wondering if it's worth my time to prepare both shoulders for a hole.



Exitao -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 15:39:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I´m leaving this thread. I´ve been asked to cool down. This is the only way I can do what you want me to do. I cannot stand Mr Blackshear and the way he acts and I´m not the kind of guy who shuts up.
But because you guys want me to shut up, I will leave this thread. OK

I can only say that I´m glad I´m not the only one who has expressed his negative opinions about Mr Blackshear and the he behaves here.

So its all yours, Mr Blackshear. You can continue in peace telling people that soundports or whatever is not in your little world is BAD. You can continue with your disrespecfull little hints about other builders etc.
Go ahead and enjoy yourself.

Anders



As you are the originator of this thread, this makes me sad. It's your thread, it should not be you who is compelled to leave.

I feel that you should have been offered much more respect.

It's interesting to see how some things change, and other don't.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 15:48:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aadi

Excellent, because I have a question for you. What changes do you notice in what you hear out of the port on the bass side when the port on the treble side is covered/uncovered? I'm wondering if it's worth my time to prepare both shoulders for a hole.


The one on the bass side is closer to the ears so you hear it as being louder. In retrospect, I would in the future put only one port like Anders has on the bass side.



cathulu -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 15:57:40)

My take is both Anders and Tom can be hard heads. Tom can be condescending and I get the little digs that can piss off other luthiers, whether Tom sees it or not. Anders can say stuff that I would not say, far too hard in the sand. I would have found another way.

Anyways, apologies made and let's get on with normal discourse.



Exitao -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 21 2009 16:19:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

My take is both Anders and Tom can be hard heads. Tom can be condescending and I get the little digs that can piss off other luthiers, whether Tom sees it or not. Anders can say stuff that I would not say, far too hard in the sand. I would have found another way.

Anyways, apologies made and let's get on with normal discourse.

Perhaps, but I always thought that when someone starts a thread, they should tend to it. The way a host tends to a party and his guests. It's a responsibility.
But there should be respect afforded both ways.

When a person is not a native speaker of English (the linua franca of the foro), it can make their responses seems rougher and less genteel that intended.

e.g. when someone says something is BS, whether they use those words or different, the intent is the same. Use of a more refined vocabulary does not alter the intent or truth of the statement and we should understand.

Just as we should recognise and frown on discourtesy regardless of the words it may be couched in.

Lack of understanding and narrow mindedness never help. I think they started and exacerbated the strife in this thread.



buddytalk -> RE: soundportparty in my patio (Jul. 22 2009 0:05:26)

Hello,
If this thread has come to an end then I will make one last comment.
I own 2 of Ander's very fine guitars, negra and blanca. There is a 3rd
being built for me now with a soundport. I feel very fortunate to have
been introduced to Anders guitars. Whatever he wills I will agree wholeheartedly. To all of you who own a eliasson guitar (SALUTE).
It is truly a wonder that you can own a guitar as good as Anders in these
times and not have to sell the farm to do so. [:)]



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