RE: Conde Questions (Full Version)

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Pimientito -> RE: Conde Questions (Apr. 21 2009 10:45:32)

Thanks Henry. I have some great photos of flamenco stuuf over the years but most of my favorate ones come from Sanlucar. They bring back so many memories of so many good times.
The Paco de Lucia is a real painting that I got about 5 years ago. I'll load a full photo when I get some more daylight. Its from a stock photo but the painting is unique.

Right now I am really excited. I have to restring the conde, take the edges off the fingerboard, adjust the bridge a little and set it up but right now I am really happy. I always wanted one like this..and in this colour too (does that sound girly?). If anyone wants a really good 19 year old A28 I will put an ad in the classifieds soon.



XXX -> RE: Conde Questions (Apr. 21 2009 10:59:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito
and in this colour too (does that sound girly?)


God, no! I love this color! It fits so well the dancers red dresses (now THAT was girly! [;)]).



mark indigo -> RE: Conde Questions (Apr. 22 2009 9:00:10)

sheeeesh! i hadn't read this thread before, and i just read it thru' from beginning to end.... it reads like a murder mystery, but we still don't know "whodunnit" and i'm wondering if the butler makes them....

i'm still really confused as to which business is which, but if there are no living "Conde brothers" (or Brothers Conde), then ALL the guitars must be outsourced and made by someone else....?

there are 2 websites, http://www.hermanosconde.com/ (at Gravina 7) and http://www.condehermanos.com/ (at Feliep V), but i'm not sure which family member/s are involved in which? and who is at Atocha?

I guess if you have 3 businesses, all called "Conde", and they all outsource their guitars to other makers, and noone but the most secretive insiders know who makes what for who, then all anyone has to rely on is ear and feel.... and they can make a packet selling the dogs to wealthy amateur beginners...[&:][:D][:D][:D]

btw i found this on GSI site:

The Conde dynasty was founded by Domingo Esteso (1882-1937), who established his own shop in 1915 after building guitars in the esteemed Manuel Ramirez workshop. After his death in 1937, his widow and nephews (Faustino and Mariano Conde) carried on the tradition. Although Esteso's widow passed away in 1959, Faustino and Mariano continued building until the late 80s. Today the tradition is still carried on by Esteso's great-nephews - Mariano, Jr. and Felipe Conde - in the workshop at Felipe, V, in Madrid.

and no mention of Gravina, Atocha, or Julio Conde? anyone?



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Apr. 23 2009 7:58:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Checked em out again in the dark room. The sanchis was darn close to the barbero style bracing up top of this page (plan 42), and yeah super thin. The sobrinos was almost identical to the 97 conde, bracing and thicknesses. Only minor difference was of the 5 parallel braces, numbers 2 and 4 are extended on the modern conde, and go all the way up along side the soundhole. Other than that, they are the exact same plan. So this plan is as old at least as 73, and the two guitar tops were about the same thickness based on translucency.



for anyone who still cares, I checked out a 71 Sobrinos bracing....it was NOT the parallel braces design as the 73, it was more like the Barbero design like Robj showed earlier. Perhaps not coincidentally, the 71 has more power in the Bass register than the 73. The result is what seems a bit louder sound, but not as bright and clear voiced. Perhaps in these years (71-73) experimenting was going on?

Ricardo



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Conde Questions (Apr. 24 2009 0:00:35)

quote:

Perhaps in these years (71-73) experimenting was going on?


Or maybe its just made by another builder.[;)]



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Apr. 24 2009 6:39:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Perhaps in these years (71-73) experimenting was going on?


Or maybe its just made by another builder.[;)]


Sanchis. [:D]



tarchin -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 11 2012 6:28:09)

Browse these for two images of Vda & Sbnos late '40's early '50's.

I own a blanca 51 and a negra '48.....the latter is for sale.

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8483/8176918813_dfa15cd293.jpg[/img]
Head by sopatarchin, on Flickr

[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8061/8176918509_059703de0d.jpg[/img]
Estesolabel by sopatarchin, on Flickr



bursche -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 11 2012 23:15:56)

UUuuuf tarchin, that was a serious necro bump!



tarchin -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 14 2012 20:11:49)

Necro bump? I'm afraid I'm a bit lost with that one.



Pimientito -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 14 2012 21:28:34)

I cant believe this thread has been running 4 years now....must be a record. I have still never played a better Conde than the "Viejin" blanca I bought 3 years ago. I recorded with it and wont let it go. After buying Ricardos old conde the only conclusion that I can make is buy from professionals.....they seem to get the best guitars from the workshops.



turnermoran -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 14 2012 21:40:34)

necro bump: bumping a dead thread to the top of the list

conde thread: you will never die!!!



Morante -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 14 2012 22:34:29)

quote:

Could it be that Condes design and therefore the sound is perfect when amplified and that without amplification they are nothing special and that the Pros use them for concert and recording because of this fact? (and because of setup and playability?)


This is my opinion: when we were trying to bet a good sound for my recording of José Millán, we had 3 guitars to choose from: Gerundino, Reyes and Conde. Although the Gerundino won the acoustic sound contest hands down, with Reyes a close second, the Conde was chosen for the recording.



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 15 2012 13:19:17)

quote:

the Conde was chosen for the recording.


Shall we try to count all conde guitars ever used on cante recordings? Often it's even what the SINGER wants as it's become so familiar since days of Melchor and Ricardo.



Don Dionisio -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 15 2012 16:28:03)

Recently, I played a re-edition Domingo Esteso from 2004. It was hands down the best
guitar I ever played. I've played many luthier made guitars and none could match this guitar.
It was a dream to play and responded from the most delicate playing to the most aggressive
playing. If I had the money, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to but it.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 16 2012 12:47:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

Could it be that Condes design and therefore the sound is perfect when amplified and that without amplification they are nothing special and that the Pros use them for concert and recording because of this fact? (and because of setup and playability?)


This is my opinion: when we were trying to bet a good sound for my recording of José Millán, we had 3 guitars to choose from: Gerundino, Reyes and Conde. Although the Gerundino won the acoustic sound contest hands down, with Reyes a close second, the Conde was chosen for the recording.



According to my father top class guitars can be constructed in such a way that they guide various parts of the audio spectrum to various (specialized) parts of the guitar (like a speaker set integrating specialized speakers for low, middle and high registers). Those "multi-speaker" guitars are not easy to catch "in full glory" because a randomly placed mic will capture a selective and probably incomplete part of the guitars total audio spectrum only. As a result this type of guitar guitar can totally lose it's acoustic qualities and often won't do any better than a cheap guitar when adapting a closely placed mic. Obviously one could/should experiment with various setups, varying location, distance and even the amount of mic's to find the best possible sound.

My massive 1985 (palisander) Conde strongly varied in sound quality over the past 25 years. In general i favor my ultra light and extremely sensitive 1977 Jose Ramirez (both live and on recordings) but every now and than that old Conde regains the superb sound quality it had when we bought it. I'm planning to treat it with better tuning pegs and i also plan to balance (and slightly alter) the distance between the strings. I hope to try out my string intentions with a prepared bridge-bone first before altering the string holes itself...one has to be absolutely sure before altering a guitar like this.


STRING QUESTION:

My Conde seems to be less pleased with modern day strings than with for instance the old red La Bella strings. Does anyone know if La Bella's RED treble strings of the 90ties are still available anywhere? I believe i ones read Paco de Lucia's favorite Conde/string combination (la Bella trebles and Hannabach base strings) are sold as a combined PDL set. I might try one of those if they (still) exist..... Does anyone tried out the various (expensive) "Conde"sets offered? What kind of strings work on your Condes?



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 16 2012 14:22:02)

quote:

I hope to try out my string intentions with a prepared bridge-bone first before altering the string holes itself...one has to be absolutely sure before altering a guitar like this


IN what way...closer together or more spread apart?

Labella 820's still around (red trebels) there was a recent thread as quality had suffered and now a new improved version is available that I concur are good like the old ones. "conde" strings felt more like Luthier strings to me (the brand that conde had been using on their guitars anyway years before)....and luthier strings are good and bright but very different sound than the old snappy red labellas.

Ricardo



turnermoran -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 16 2012 17:23:27)

quote:

...and luthier strings are good and bright but very different sound than the old snappy red labellas.


Are you speaking of the basses *and* trebles in regards to the Luthier strings?



Erik van Goch -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 16 2012 20:22:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I hope to try out my string intentions with a prepared bridge-bone first before altering the string holes itself...one has to be absolutely sure before altering a guitar like this


IN what way...closer together or more spread apart?



Closer together. The distance between my string holes is out of balance and as a result the distance between the strings varies as well. I seem to favor the smaller gabs, especially during picado. With the smaller gabs "plugging 1 string>landing on the neighboring string" feels like 1 natural movement. With the wider gabs however it feels unnatural (indeed like falling in a gab). I also feel and dislike the extra time involved (in both plugging and lifting). By copying the picado friendly smaller gabs i hope to extent that natural feeling to all string combinations. Like i said before, speed is not my main problem with picado, string walking and hand synchronisation is. A more balanced and personalized string separation might be just what i need.



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 17 2012 18:24:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I hope to try out my string intentions with a prepared bridge-bone first before altering the string holes itself...one has to be absolutely sure before altering a guitar like this


IN what way...closer together or more spread apart?



Closer together. The distance between my string holes is out of balance and as a result the distance between the strings varies as well. I seem to favor the smaller gabs, especially during picado. With the smaller gabs "plugging 1 string>landing on the neighboring string" feels like 1 natural movement. With the wider gabs however it feels unnatural (indeed like falling in a gab). I also feel and dislike the extra time involved (in both plugging and lifting). By copying the picado friendly smaller gabs i hope to extent that natural feeling to all string combinations. Like i said before speed is not my main problem with picado, string walking and hand synchronisation is. A more balanced and personalized string separation might be just what i need.


Oddly I feel exactly opposite to you. I have couple guitar guitars with strings closer and the accuracy and feeling requires to have a more refined small movement. Especially with arpegios etc. I never quite get used to the skinnier feeling guitars vs the very wide spaced guitars which always feel great when I return to them. Now I also play with a pick on rare occasion and in that case, for sure the closer spacing feels much better.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 20 2012 22:45:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I have couple guitar guitars with strings closer and the accuracy and feeling requires to have a more refined small movement. Especially with arpegios etc.



Sounds perfect to me :-) As you know i favor playing the guitar with minimal movements and maximal relaxed fingers (in pre exercises i also study large movements). I always try to maintain "walking hand position" as much as possible (meaning the natural and totally relaxed line up arm/wrist/hand/fingers one has during walking). I simply bring that line up to the place of the action allowing only minimal adjustments.

I support the idea that a totally relaxed finger can react quicker to minute nerve pulses than a more tensed finger who needs a little more persuasion (in the same way you have to over-shout yourself to an ear/hand combination in order to be audible in a room with extremely loud distracting external noises). After the relaxed finger has moved (and plugged the string) it must stay aired as long as it is told so. Going back is (partly) a matter of retreating the pulse/restoring the original relaxation on a convineant moment after which the finger should "automatically" fall back into original position, ready to receive a new pulse. The trick is to try to combine minimal input with maximal output. I like to think that a relaxed finger produces a better sound as well.

This is the way i TRY to play (in fluent harmony with the other relaxed fingers). This kind of refined small movement is indeed very demanding (i often fail to deliver) and most certainly not everybody's cup of tea.

So i might indeed feel very uncomfortable when i start to play my experimental close string setup...i guess there's only one way to find out :-)



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 21 2012 1:04:32)

quote:

So i might indeed feel very uncomfortable when i start to play my experimental close string setup...i guess there's only one way to find out :-)


well, no there is another way to find out which is safer than altering your nice guitar's set up. First try it out on a skinny guitar and decide if it is truly what you want....and don't be fooled by action. Spend some serious time with the skinny instrument then go back to your wide spaced guitar and be honest. I am only saying, cuz it was exactly what I experienced. On students guitar we changed the nut and it made a world of difference to widen the spacing. So I know I am not crazy.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Conde Questions (Nov. 21 2012 16:18:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

So i might indeed feel very uncomfortable when i start to play my experimental close string setup...i guess there's only one way to find out :-)


well, no there is another way to find out which is safer than altering your nice guitar's set up. First try it out on a skinny guitar and decide if it is truly what you want....



When i mentioned there is only one way to find out i simply mend i have to try it out on an actual guitar". In fact that isn't 100% correct either since in the 50ties my father invented a arpeggio exerciser, a small piece of wood with a bridge, 6 short strings and 6 tuning pegs imitating the stringed front of a guitar between the bridge and the sound hole. For the right hand it feels and plays like a "real guitar" but being "mute" and only as big as a fold up newspaper it can be played anywhere anytime. My father used it to do right hand exercises whenever a real guitar was not an option (like in a car... if you don't have to share the backseat places you can also play on a real guitar but if you have to share it with others and lack the room to hold a guitar you can probably still play that arpeggio board). I saw one for sale on the interned recently, commercially offered by a spanish guitarist who happened to be the sparing partner of my father back than in the 50ties......wonder were he got his inspiration :-)


Like i said i hope to try it out with a "string directing" bridge bone first if possible. My present day bridge bone is completely worn out and have to be replaced anyhow. Ultimately i have to correct the bridge's string hole positions as well (one way or the other) since they are slightly out of balance as they are.

10,2>9,8>9,8>10,2>10,2 (fictional figures)

I tent to favor it's present day smaller 9,8 gaps over it's present day bigger 10,2 gaps. I can middle the difference and go for the save 10>10>10>10>10 or i can try the more daring 9,8>9,8>9,8>9,8>9,8.

Obviously i will experiment a little bit before making a more permanent choice.



Pberg -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 7 2014 1:40:05)

I will take some photos when I get it back from the luthier (loose brace) I can't find any images that matches the headstock design of this 1975 Conde that I just purchased so perhaps some of you knowledgable people can confirm its validity.



Pberg -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 7 2014 12:08:16)

Never mind :) Al has pretty much just confirmed what I thought. It's a estudio.



el carbonero -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 7 2014 12:16:14)

Pberg;

You wake this thread because you like the smell of blood? [:D][:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 7 2014 20:35:15)

quote:

I cant believe this thread has been running 4 years now....must be a record.


been 5 years now...going on 6. [:D]


Riconde



Morante -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 7 2014 23:06:15)

I have played old guitars such as Santos, Manuel Ramirez etc. and I believe that many modern guitars are better in every way.

The truly great guitarreros of the modern era have been Archangel, Gerundino, Faustino and Reyes

Times have changed, flamenco has changed. What is needed nowadays is the Fender Telecaster of flamenco. The Tele is not a PRS or a Vigier, it is a workhorse for every situation. You can buy an "improved" boutique style Tele, but will find it very hard to sell on.

The basic Tele, in flamenco term, is a Conde.

Nobody should run down Condes, because they are a professional´s workhorse: there are guitars which are better in many ways, but of limited appeal.

And there is an enormous difference between playing professionally and playing in your bedroom.



athrane77 -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 7 2014 23:40:06)

[:@][:'(][&:][:(][8|][8|][8|]



Pberg -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 8 2014 11:13:19)

Smell and taste :D
Jokes aside I joined this site to educate myself on my recent purchase and I'm grateful for the assistance already.

Pat



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 17 2014 14:46:15)

Sorry came across this and couldn't resist.

http://youtu.be/OgnuhTprgVU

Riconde



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