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RE: Does over analising/intellectualizing kill flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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[Poll]

Does over analising/intellectualizing kill flamenco?
yes
  55% (15)
no
  7% (2)
sometimes
  37% (10)


Total Votes : 27
(last vote on : Mar. 28 2015 0:54:10) 
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runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)1 votes
Before you ask whether you can or should analyze & intellectualize flamenco (don't be frightened!) and also fully & emotionally enjoy it, ask yourself if you can walk and chew gum at the same time.

runner
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 6:19:41
 
Stu

Posts: 2561
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to runner) 
I think technique needs loads of analysis!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 8:07:53
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Stu) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

I think technique needs loads of analysis!

Are we talking about sex again? Oh no sorry, guitar

Yes I agree it does. And I think that structure and compas benefit from SOME analysis.

The question for me is: when does useful analysis become OVER analysis? How do you know when to stop? Maybe when it gets boring!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 9:29:23
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Ailsa) 
quote:

The question for me is: when does useful analysis become OVER analysis? How do you know when to stop?

When you feel the urge to play instead.

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Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 9:50:08
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Ailsa)1 votes
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

I think technique needs loads of analysis!

Are we talking about sex again? Oh no sorry, guitar

Yes I agree it does. And I think that structure and compas benefit from SOME analysis.

The question for me is: when does useful analysis become OVER analysis? How do you know when to stop? Maybe when it gets boring!

All you 'young people' with your one-track minds.

Anyway, like Norman said, it's subjective. You stop when it stops being interesting or you lose your passion or whatever it is that inspired you to start doesn't inspire you any more.


I think that much of the Flamenco conversation, technical or analytical, in the foro comes from a love of Flamenco. When you love something (as opposed to a someone), you want to dream it, eat it, breathe it... True love is exactly like obsession, except without the negatives.
Again, your love or passion and where it leads you is subjective and some people have natural propensities and different degrees of passion which will determine where these people focus and how intensely.

Some people participate, not so much out of an interest, but simply because they want to commune with like-minded people.
They are often the people who derail threads or feel we're over analysing, I'll wager. (Even though I've been guilty of that too, I might point out that we do have an off-topic sub-forum for sillier stuff.)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 10:01:09
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Ailsa) 
quote:

Are we talking about sex again?


i did wonder when i saw the thread name - because of the spelling i read it as anal-ising not "analysing" which was obviously meant.... ooopsy!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 10:25:01
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Are we talking about sex again?


i did wonder when i saw the thread name - because of the spelling i read it as anal-ising not "analysing" which was obviously meant.... ooopsy!

Somewhere, Freud is fondling a cigar (which really is just a cigar) and looking down fondly on you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 10:57:40
 
edguerin

Posts: 1590
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to runner) 
OVER-analising kills.
Analysis per se can help 'though (sometimes)

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 11:38:37
 
ddk

Posts: 155
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
From: California

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Exitao) 
I think the key here is "over" analyzing. Obviously, as guitarists (or dancers), we need to analyze in order to understand and to learn. The question (I think a good one) is whether "over" analyzing is harmful to one's progress and I think it can be. The Gitanos who have grown up immersed in Flamenco culture wouldn't necessarily understand some of our musical discussions here and would probably laugh at us. We do need some form of intellectualisation in order to learn, but I think it can be detrimental to take a "Flamencologist's" approach to learning. Then it becomes too studied, too classical and moribund; the antithesis of Flamenco IMHO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 11:49:16
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)1 votes
Well, yesterday someone kept me on sykpe whom I didnt see for 2,5 years. He lost his job and needed money. Than he told me I owe him 300Euros. And he came up with some invented "deals" which we had in past. I mean which he thought we had. Than I saw my thread. I really tryed to start a serious thread with some questions which everybody here should interest. And what I saw, were the tallest beard and stupid picture-collection what I´ve ever saw here. And this thread here also fits in that topic, but this time without giftbags. So, coz of the person who tryed to get a lot of money from me, I was extremely nervous. And when I saw my try to start to be serious here (and many "Doit-like" answeres appeared, I got a bit angry. Thats the reason why 'I posted the beards and giftbags here. So, I calmed down. And wont go on with that bad style here ok..

quote:

Doit you got some nerve to complain...you are the most irrelevant guy here...known for giving one line irrelevant, sarcastic silly trying to be funny answers to most threads and most questions......this is what you do 80% of the time dude...


Florian, I think its great you talk without "pussyfooting" as you wrote in past. Its nice to have it black on white to be the most irrelevant person in the foro. ;.) Man, I worked so hard to become him. Now I made it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 12:04:16
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest) 
quote:

Its like your audio uploads, you never do them because you dont wont people critizising your playing but you love to hop in and bag other peoples playing and uploads in a negative and unhelpful way, but cant take it yourself.


Whoms playing did I criticize? I'm always serious with ones playing. Cant remember when I made jokes about someones playing. The last two uploads where I commented were bursches tangos and Anders buleria. And I didnt write anything bad. Must have been a long time. I also uploaded some videos of my playing in past. Some people liked it, and some not. But that was no problem. So,.. I cant understand you point..
But the one with you can give and but cant take is maybe right. But I dont attack people personally here. (EDIT: except Agujetas. Yes I wrote somehard things about his interview. But I think its not a big deal, because hes somehow not "real" here. Because hes an excellent and famous artist who should not participate here, because iit would not be professional to get in trouble here.)
If you want you can start a kick Doit from the forum thread. I will stay away if the major part think like that.
Man,.. in the last months I really tryed to be nice. Just here and there some jokes. But not more than for example florian. And of course no mean ones. At the moment here are not many threads where I can contribute so much. I can comment on technics, but thats it. If you want an upload from me to hack on me. I can do one for you at the next weekend.

P.S. My beard-answer was not meant against you Dominic. Maybe I should open an own thread where we can discuss a bit seriously about the problems. There you also can kick me out of the foro. Good idea no?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 12:25:45
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Exitao) 
quote:

All you 'young people' with your one-track minds.


Typical!

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Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 12:28:12
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Doitsujin) 
Hey leave Doit alone you evil people!

I'm sure Ricardo and others will back me on this!

Naughty Forumites,

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 12:37:34
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to runner) 
Meanwhile its true that some discussions get tedious, its also good not to leave your brain at the entrance. The discussions dont get boring because of "intellectualizing" but because just very few people actually know about flamenco. Mostly its people who really DO it by themselves.
Discussions dont kill flamenco. They can fail, but that doesnt kill flamenco.

Ps: 5 stars to Doit! Its just too funny. You australian boys should go play with your Kangorohos and calm down, this is supposed to be fun. At least i hope that this thread was intended to be a fun thread.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 12:55:31
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

Florian, I think its great you talk without "pussyfooting" as you wrote in past. Its nice to have it black on white to be the most irrelevant person in the foro. ;.) Man, I worked so hard to become him. Now I made it!



lol Cmon Doit dont be a drama queen I am not talking about your value here..

I am talking about the amount of one line , dry answers or jokes ...I am talking about the irrelevance of some the answers to the topics you replied on...( Dude you are known for that ...take a look back on some of your replies)

and thats absoluteley fine amigo if thats you...id never tell you how to be...i like you just the way u are..


Please stop sulking before i come down there

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 13:23:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14894
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Doitsujin)1 votes
quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Wouldnt it be even more funny to post the crap over and over again??????

quote:

Does over analising/intellectualizing kill flamenco?


I don't know. But why not ignoring this question and posting some stupid beards instead? I think the option: Who cares? is missing. So I cant vote.









Or some giftbags?







Man.. that was funny...

quote:

Does over analising/intellectualizing kill flamenco?


I don't know. But why not ignoring this question and posting some stupid beards instead? I think the option: Who cares? is missing. So I cant vote.









Or some giftbags?







Man.. that was funny...

quote:

Does over analising/intellectualizing kill flamenco?


I don't know. But why not ignoring this question and posting some stupid beards instead? I think the option: Who cares? is missing. So I cant vote.









Or some giftbags?







Man.. that was funny...


?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 14:01:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14894
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to runner) 


_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 14:02:29
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to runner) 
quote:

lol Cmon Doit dont be a drama queen


Youre right. I will take it as a man...
It feels like my pants droped in front of a crowd! Mooom I wanna wake uuup! PLEASE!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 13 2009 15:05:30
 
michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Doitsujin) 
i think it's the last time i posted a beard-picture
now every body hates me...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2009 3:33:48
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Stu) 
quote:

I mean would you over analyze sex? No - some is fine, but too much gets tedious. Better to just get on with it. Same with flamenco.


Yeah but in both cases some people get of on the analization.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2009 4:20:56
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to runner) 
quote:

I mean would you over analyze sex? No - some is fine, but too much gets tedious. Better to just get on with it. Same with flamenco.


The difference between Flamenco and sex, is that there's already a ton of theory and analysis of music. We invented music, sex invented us (unless you believe in Creation, but I refuse to discuss that here). I can't think of any abstract qualities for sex, unlike music and culture.

_____________________________

Callidus et iracundus.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2009 17:59:10
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Exitao) 
quote:

there's already a ton of theory and analysis of music


... and also about sex. So I'm told.

quote:

We invented music


Now that is an interesting statement. I've often wondered what it is about music that appeals to us - a collection of intervals in time and pitch. I'm sure there's a better description, but you know what I mean. But it is so powerful.

I've read theories that rhythm is related to heartbeat. A friend of mine is a therapist and finds it effective with severely autistic children. When I'm stressed I listen to Radiohead really loudly in the car and sing along lol that was an admission I might regret.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2009 22:47:49
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Ailsa) 
Hi Ailsa,

Fascinating subject you've brought up, about the appeal of music. People's reactions to intervals in pitch may be a more subjective matter (like humor) but I think that one's impression of intervals of time may be much more objective.

If we simplify things to quarter notes, eighths, triplets and sixteenths (and quintuplets for flamenco), we're talking about a very limited range of possibilities, the perception of which, IMO, falls easily within the capacity of the average human being (whether or not he or she realizes it).

So, I think that a very large part of the allure of music has to do with precise subdivisions of a steady beat because the absence of distractions frees the mind to engage in abstract thinking. It's like hearing someone speak with an odd accent: You spend so much time paying attention to the pronunciation that you're not able to concentrate on the message.

In the case of music, distractions would be imprecise phrasing, but I once read in a book on carpentry that a well-built house makes people feel at ease because, on a subconcious level, you're always going to be distracted by poor workmanship (unaligned joints, dribble marks in the paint, etc.)

It seems that some of life's most exciting moments involve knowing what's going to happen but not knowing how it's going to happen, and I think this is the case quite often in flamenco. I don't like defining what is and isn't flamenco, but I'd go so far as to say that a big part of flamenco involves coming up with a great ending and working backwards from there in order to present it.

Sorry for running on like this, but I hope somebody else will have something to add (or disagree!), as I'm very interested in the subject.

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Be here now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 0:20:31
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman


In the case of music, distractions would be imprecise phrasing, but I once read in a book on carpentry that a well-built house makes people feel at ease because, on a subconcious level, you're always going to be distracted by poor workmanship (unaligned joints, dribble marks in the paint, etc.)





Hi Norman I love that analogy and couldn't agree more enthusiastically.

For me the purpose of analysing is to hunt down the 'unaligned joints' and 'dribble marks'. When I have grudgingly admitted they are there then I have to decide how to fix them. I believe that as long as the 'analysis' is directed towards the nuts and bolts of actually playing and practicing the guitar then it is good. As soon as the analysis takes on a life of it's own and becomes a distraction from putting things into practice it becomes just another excuse for procrastination.

Great title for this thread, was it commissioned by a politician ? . Does anyone remember the early series of 'A Bit of Fry and Laurie' ? Well there is a great sketch with this exchange.

(Hugh Laurie) ' Yes but too much is bad for you.'

(Stephen Fry, exasperatedly) 'Of course too much is bad for you THATS WHAT TOO MUCH MEANS too much of anyting would be bad for you.'

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 3:55:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14894
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Exitao) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Exitao

quote:

I mean would you over analyze sex? No - some is fine, but too much gets tedious. Better to just get on with it. Same with flamenco.


The difference between Flamenco and sex, is that there's already a ton of theory and analysis of music. We invented music, sex invented us (unless you believe in Creation, but I refuse to discuss that here). I can't think of any abstract qualities for sex, unlike music and culture.


Like the guitar there are many different techniques, positions, fingerings, cycles, form, structure and shape, but in the end, it is all about timing (rhythm) and feeling again. It can be about creating something, or just an exercise....

How about selling the "guitar grimore" and "Kama sutra" as a double pack deal?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 7:37:08
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Ailsa) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

quote:

there's already a ton of theory and analysis of music


... and also about sex. So I'm told.



Yes, but we can break music down into pure maths.
We can express a musical concept in so many ways, whereas even the incredible sex I'm famous for has it's limits. I definitely can't swap my penis out for a string section.

Sex can never be so abstract as music can. Imagine Beethoven composing symphonies he would never hear - all up inside his head. By comparison sex is somewhat paltry, maybe the intellectual version of McDonald's drive-through.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa
quote:

We invented music


Now that is an interesting statement. I've often wondered what it is about music that appeals to us - a collection of intervals in time and pitch. I'm sure there's a better description, but you know what I mean. But it is so powerful.

I've read theories that rhythm is related to heartbeat. A friend of mine is a therapist and finds it effective with severely autistic children. When I'm stressed I listen to Radiohead really loudly in the car and sing along lol that was an admission I might regret.....


It seems that need to create both language and music are almost instinctive in humans. If if there's no accounting for taste in some humans. Ahem.

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Callidus et iracundus.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 8:52:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14894
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Exitao) 
quote:

I definitely can't swap my penis out for a string section.


A flute (or other wind instrument) could do "air for a G string".

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 10:33:13
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)1 votes
The question isn't clear.

you cant over intellectualize something that isnt a conflict.

In our definition it says something like using it as a coping mechanism to avoid dealing with a conflict and prevent anxiety.......

What is the conflict? and what about flamenco is over intellectualized?

let me give you what I think:

I think there are a lot of people out there and a few very unpleasant ones here who are so bent around the knee of musicology and THEIR VIEW OF WHATS REAL that they strangle and kill flamenco for all of us.

I think that so many people are afraid of exploring flamenco from a theoretical perspective because they think this will ruin it. Wrong. Theory is a language designed to communicate the structure and function of music. That's all. because you can describe something, doesn't mean you lose its purity.

I think mental inflexibility and unwillingness to accept change kill flamenco.

I think that we who dont scrutinize the ones who claim to be experts are just as much at fault for letting them write the history books, on this foro and in the rest of the world.

I think that the real thing that kills flamenco is that people aren't focusing on the music. Music is an expression. It is not a set of rules. there are certain rules that have been established surely, maybe only so that a guitarist can play with a dancer and a singer...but they are there SOLELY TO PROVIDE A UNIVERSAL FORM. Not to govern the musician in his own pursuits.


That is what kills flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 10:47:47
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to HemeolaMan) 
quote:


I think mental inflexibility and unwillingness to accept change kill flamenco.

Or anything else.

_____________________________

Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 11:51:28
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Estevan) 
quote:

Or anything else.




Yeah...dat odder stuff's a killer man...

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2009 11:56:31
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