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I find sometimes threads here can really get into the nitty gritty of things which is great. But at the same time it can quickly become dull and boring. Here is the wiki definition for intellectualizing: Intellectualization is a defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress. It involves removing one's self, emotionally, from a stressful event. Intellectualization is often accomplished through rationalization; rather than accepting reality, one may explain it away to remove one's self.[1][2]
Intellectualization is one of Freud's original defense mechanisms. Freud believed that memories have both conscious and unconscious aspects, and that intellectualization allows for the conscious analysis of an event in a way that does not provoke anxiety.[3]
Posts: 2879
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
YES!!!! definately. I've been thinking the exact same thing.
Although its hard to express such a view without fear of being told to shut up or, if it doesn't interest you don't post etc.
I think the debates here are great for the most part but threads that continuously attempt to define this mysterious art and its history by putting it into labeled boxes often leaves me feeling rather dejected and sad.
I love the small piece of the flamenco iceberg I've discovered so far and I hope to continue to learn more and more about the essential ingredient.. the music. while I find it very interesting to learn bits about flamenco history, it doesn't affect my playing/musical enjoyment etc if I know "where flamenco got its name" or "who said what about cante in 1900"
...anyways Viva el arte
ps. intellectualizing is probably our greatest gift and our worst enemy..in everything.
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Although its hard to express such a view without fear of being told to shut up or, if it doesn't interest you don't post etc.
yeah i thought about that, then looked at my score of -37 and went, 'eehhhh' flamenco and classical is like two brothers, classical did everything he was told and went to university and buried all his emotions beneath his acedemic acheivments and wore a nice suit. Flamenco left school in grade ten and went out and partied all night instead.
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Stu)
I voted yes...i am tired of it for a while ( but this is just for me..it bores me personally...but i understand that some people like it so they can do it)
Id rather see or hear ...thats all the analising i need...and i dont need to be told by someone else what i have just heard....
let the people who dont play analize and those that play ...play
..but again this are just for me...i do silly posts i am sure some dont find to productive...so i wouldnt tell anyone what to do here..
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
rather see or hear ...thats all the analising i need...and i dont need to be told by someone else what i have just heard....
I aggree flo, we both learnt together in the same dance schools and as you know it was more than just learning guitar, it was the parties, the shows, all the pretty dancers, that crazy singer pulling out the machete, oscar falling over on the stage, sal falling off the back of the stage, roger falling over with the flowers, veronica falling on her ass in compas, the weekends away in the country with 20 dancers and only a handful of guys, ice coffees, all the strange charactors you meet at dance class who are just there cause they r having a mid life crisis and they wanna meet some young sexy dancer and invite them rock climbing and things get a little weird, the politics, friends and all that....actually maybe not the politics thats more a dancer thing.
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
Dont try to be me Doit ...i didnt just wake up this funny..
frankly i am offended that you cheapen my art like this by insinuating ...i just posted photos... I am an ARTIST
and btw ..i started posting the photos after i houmored you..i replied to your questions..discused your subject...then after the thread went around the lap 30 times..i got bored so ...
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
Doit you got some nerve to complain...you are the most irrelevant guy here...known for giving one line irrelevant, sarcastic silly trying to be funny answers to most threads and most questions......this is what you do 80% of the time dude...
all the suddent you wanna talk now and nobody can make a joke on your thread... give me a brake dude...
And i thought you were kidding when you were angry about it...thats your fault for havind dry houmor..I cant tell when you are joking or serious over the internet...had you made it clearer to me that it really did bother you i would have stoped...I thought...you were just beeing funny when you were swearing lol that was the funiest i had ever seen you actualy
if u checked my last post on that thread you will see me apologising just incase you were serious about beeing angry....
I dont know what you problem is...your thread was one of the most entertaining around here for a while..(and not just for 1 person) we discussed the topics u wanted to discuss for the first 4 or 5 pages...we were geting nowhere..it got to the point where noone was listening to anyone else anyway..everyone just wanted to tell...noone wanted to listen anymore
so your thread had run its natural course before i made jokes
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Florian)
why are you infesting my thred doit i didnt post any bearded ladies in your thred. Dont lash out at me man maybe u should have another drink and pass out?
Posts: 2879
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Dont try to be me Doit ...i didnt just wake up this funny..
frankly i am offended that you cheapen my art like this by insinuating ...i just posted photos...
and btw ..i started posting the photos after i houmored you..i replied to your questions..discused your subject...then after the thread went around the lap 30 times..i got bored so ...
i did apologise to you..get over it..
yeah! what the hell you doin??? flo's efforts took time and thought, and as he said it only happened after the thread had descended into the mire.
You just googled "beards" and anyway Dominic started this thread!!!!
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Stu)
why do i get the feeling this thred is going pear shaped, maybe i should just give up on it ever going back on topic doit i know your feeling negleted right now like a spoilt child mummy didnt pay enough attention to but i promise to give you my undivided attention next thred, oh yes i will be in your next thred amigo if you ever do one ....
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
actually doit i PROMISE to pay attention to you in EVERY thred you do from now on but i dont think youll be doing one in a hurry. Its like your audio uploads, you never do them because you dont wont people critizising your playing but you love to hop in and bag other peoples playing and uploads in a negative and unhelpful way, but cant take it yourself.
In short you can GIVE it but you cant TAKE it
(and in your usual style i know you wont reply directly to this post)
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
Sorry Dom! Let me give a real answer. It would be yes. Over analyzing can be a negative, especially in Flamenco. What inspires me the most about Flamenco is the intensity of emotion it provides. Funny thing about the Foro is, we rarely talk about "duende". Probably a loaded subject, but without it Flamenco becomes just another form of "World Music". I've complained about that in other threads. I have bought a number of CD's that I never listen to because they lack that intensity, duende, guts... whatever you want to call it. Recently I was listening to Lole y Miguel's first record and was struck by how crude and simple the guitar playing, singing and production were; but you know what? I really like that record!
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
It’s a valid and dicey question to ask, and I think the easiest answer is probably “all of the above”. Given the overall complexity and overwhelming variety of all the various aspects of flamenco, if you wanna get past the initial, gut-level, like it/don’t like it stage of listening and playing then you have to engage in SOME level of analysis: figuring out how all the pieces go together, how the various compases work, the structures of the different parts of the dance and song and how they do and don’t work, and obviously the more serious you get, the more you need to know, especially if you want to accompany. There’s no question that the ideal way to do all this is via the hands-on, experiential work of actually DOING it and learning directly from those with experience, but, particularly for those of us coming to flamenco from outside the culture, I think this has to be coupled with some sort of intellectualization, mental categorization and compartmentalization, some means of making sense of it all. At what point that sort of healthy, helpful intellectualization shades into pointless, futile over-intellectualization is pretty cloudy, I guess. I figure the farther along you get on the spectrum between actual nuts n’ bolts structural/technical information towards speculation and opinion, the less fruitful the dialogue becomes, and at some point you start going in circles, hitting dead ends, pissing each other off, etc.
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
Your question posed in the subject is unfairly phrased. Over analysing/intellectualising is already excessive.
I think first it should be questioned if Flamenco can be over analysed. Then, if you decided yes/how you would have to question if it's actually of any detriment.
For people who grow up in Flamenco's native environment, compas may be as natural to them as their own heartbeat. Andalu is damn near its own dialect at times, so having the language (and thoughts and feelings that are sometimes only expressible/contemplateable in that language) and the knowledge and context of a tradition make Flamenco something slightly inaccessible.
The fact that Flamenco does manage to transcend that and capture the attentions of people (e.g. many of us here), is remarkable. And as many of us will not get the chance to live it, how else can we attempt to comprehend the more inaccessible parts of Flamenco?
I think that Flamenco is deserving of more academic analysis, from musical theory to a sociological approach.
Frankly if one participates in these analyses and debates, I would assume that one must be enjoying it or he or she would simply cease and move on to more gratifying pursuits once he or she felt that it was being overdone.
It may kill your buzz, but as it serves to facilitate understanding and appreciation, it can't harm Flamenco.
How could any of you puny mortals be so conceited as to think yourselves capable of harming Flamenco? Flamenco could kick Superman's ass, in compas no less.
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Exitao)
quote:
How could any of you puny mortals be so conceited as to think yourselves capable of harming Flamenco?
yes good point, but you certainly seem to posess the power to kill it. (couldnt help but notice you didnt include yourself in the whole 'puny mortals' thing there oh great one )
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to Guest)
It's entirely subjective, isn't it? I mean, are we talking about killing flamenco for the audience or for the performer? Either way, it all depends on how much one is willing to deal with and how one reacts once a certain level has been surpassed.
For example, there's definitely a kind of aficionado who seems to get more enjoyment from arguing about flamenco than from the art itself. There are flamencólogos who seem to be mainly preoccupied with making their heroes (or neighbors) look good and the rivals of their heroes look bad. Those are examples of situations that we all face at one time or another, and I think it all depends on how each person chooses to react. I love analysis in general and the study of flamenco in particular, but drawn-out arguments and narrow-minded hero worship are a real drag.
In general, I think certain elements of flamenco (compás, meter, etc.) make it just a little too hard for most people to understand easily. This puts it just beyond our immediate grasp and gives us the sensation that "there's something going on there, but I'm not sure what it is." Most women know that this is an extraordinarily effective way to keep a man interested! But seriously, there is so much to be learned (despite the small canvas on which flamenco is painted) that you have to get into serious analysis at one point or another.
For me, the problem nearly always has to do with people using flamenco to make themselves look good. It might be in the form of a radical new theory ("Look what I thought of!"), in the exaggerated defense of traditional flamenco ("Look what I’m doing for flamenco!"), egocentric accompaniment (“Look what I can do!”), or just trying to sound like a know-it-all. Otherwise, the more one studies, the better, IMO, as long as you don’t forget to keep having fun.
I remember an old gypsy I met in Marchena who said that he never got tired of listening to flamenco. He was around 80 years old and you’ll just have to imagine the youthful fire that came into his eyes as he said that. How many other art forms have that effect on people without becoming pretentious or elitist?
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Does over analising/intellectual... (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
I remember an old gypsy I met in Marchena who said that he never got tired of listening to flamenco. He was around 80 years old and you’ll just have to imagine the youthful fire that came into his eyes as he said that. How many other art forms have that effect on people without becoming pretentious or elitist?
Great story Norman. Makes it come alive for me. I was trying to explain to someone who knows nothing about flamenco what makes it special for me. So hard to define. One thing I like is that it has attitude - even in the depths of despair it's not music for wimps.
Anyway to the topic. I think over analyzing anything can kill the pleasure and excitment. I mean would you over analyze sex? No - some is fine, but too much gets tedious. Better to just get on with it. Same with flamenco.
Printable Version
flamenco and classical is like two brothers, classical did everything he was told and went to university and buried all his emotions beneath his acedemic acheivments and wore a nice suit. Flamenco left school in grade ten and went out and partied all night instead. 
I am an ARTIST 
Zzzzzzzz.....
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