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RE: Videoclip of my Reyes Model Guitar
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Videoclip of my Reyes Model Guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
I think Jose approaches this issue a little differently if I'm not mistaken. In 1995 at the GAL convention Jose basically approached the top stiffness in sort of a esoteric way; not really giving thicknesses but showing how he bent the top with his fore-finger and thumb according to top stiffness, or if you can add any more to this......... Tom Yes, that's the way José does it. As with most things he is following the Torres tradition with this method. In that point i agree with Anders that in that this very traditional method cannot really be called esoteric. I wonder always how it is possible that some luthiers such as Jeronimo Peña Fernandez write in their books: a flamenco guitar has a top thickness of 2.2mm and the back sould be 2.1mm or similar. Such absolute numbers do not consider the individual properties of the material used. If a specific measurement was right on a particular guitar, then it doesn't mean the measurements works on another guitar as well. Therefore feeling the flex and resistance of the top by using the Torres method is a basically a good thing to do. Regarding the tuning of a soundboard to a specific key, i don't think it's impossible to do allthough i'm sure it's very difficult, because the pitch of the soundboard changes, once the sides and the neck is attached and it changes again, once the soundbox is closed. So in order to land at the right pitch with all parts is a hard thing to do. Romanillos indeed has a different approch on this things as well. He just don't believe that it is possible to change the sound of the guitar to the better by tuning parts to specific pitches. There i think is a cultural gap between spanish makers and american makers, or a cultural gap between the left and the right brain lutherie approach. quote:
Hi Armando Very, very nice. Sounds really good... clear, fast and articulate. I have seen a number of Reyes' and his guitars are near and dear to my heart. They tend to have a real aristocratic voice as well as juevos to spare. In any case you seem to be in the right ballpark which is good to see. Thanks Aaron for your comments on my guitar. I feel honoured to hear that from you. Thanks also for all your advice an help in the past. regards Armando
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Date Dec. 12 2008 0:50:55
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Videoclip of my Reyes Model Guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
I think Jose approaches this issue a little differently if I'm not mistaken. In 1995 at the GAL convention Jose basically approached the top stiffness in sort of a esoteric way; not really giving thicknesses but showing how he bent the top with his fore-finger and thumb according to top stiffness, or if you can add any more to this......... Tom Yes, José has indeed a different approch to this but i agree in this point with Anders, that it is a bit... to call that method esoteric. I think that's probably the most traditional method used by spanish luthiers to determine the stiffness of bracings and tops. José is using this Torres method as with most things he does. Sometimes i wonder how come that some luthiers write in their books that top and back of a flamenco guitar should have this or that specific thickness. I think that such recommendations do not consider the individual material used by the luthier at all. I think to tune a top to specific pitch is not impossible allthough very difficult. As you know for sure, the pitch changes once the sides and the neck is attached and it changes again once the soundbox is closed. José doesn't belive either that it is possible change the sound of a guitar to the better by just tuning some parts of the guitar to specific pitches, but i think that's a cultural issue between spanish makers and american makers, or maybe more generally said, between the left brain and the right brain approch. Thinning the struts on a ready assembled guitar in order to balance the soundboard response is something that i believe in too. quote:
Hi Armando Very, very nice. Sounds really good... clear, fast and articulate. I have seen a number of Reyes' and his guitars are near and dear to my heart. They tend to have a real aristocratic voice as well as juevos to spare. In any case you seem to be in the right ballpark which is good to see. Aaron Thanks for your comments on my guitar. I feel honoured to hear that from you. Thanks for all your advice and help in the past. regards Armando
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Date Dec. 12 2008 1:13:28
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Videoclip of my Reyes Model Guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson quote:
Don't worry about that since it is relatively easy to determine the key by certain easy steps to follow. Personally, I think you did a good job on this guitar with the technique you used. If you are interested I can give you an easy approach that makes sense but I'll have to do it off line since I normally charge for this information, and I feel that giving it out on a public forum defeats the purpose of my techniques to make a living with. TomB. You have said these things so many times on this foro. That your plan is so easy to tune, that everything is in the plan etc fine tuning, voicing, hum hum, hym hym. You always end up with saying you wont go into details because its something you charge for or because its to complicated for the forum. To me, this ends up being something very mystical, so maybe we should call you the esoterical builder. Anders, All I'm saying is that I would rather not share this technical information on an open/public forum but if you or any other builder here, on this list, would like to know what I do, then please feel free to contact me at my e-mail address tguitars@texas.net and I'll be happy to share what I know with you, as long as it doesn't get too lengthy, for times sake. And my sharing of this information is about the Reyes design, articulation, and sound, only, I don't have the time to get into other guitar making issues, Thanks.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Dec. 13 2008 5:47:30
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flamencoguru
Posts: 271
Joined: Jun. 30 2004
From: West Palm Beach, Florida USA
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RE: Videoclip of my Reyes Model Guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Hello Amando, sounds like a great guitar. Congradulations!! You should be proud. As far as Reyes is concerned. They are great instuments but I don't see the reason for all of the hype. Yeah... Vicente, Tomatito and several others play them. Don't forget that many other players play other great guitars. I can tell you from a very reliable source that the majority of the Reyes guitars that come to the States have to go through an American luthier's hands for proper set up and finishing. I've probably played 10 Reyes in my life, 1 of which was excellent (it was at GSI and at that time,in 2002, they were asking $11,000. It was a 1976). The others were ok. I didn't see any real magic in them. Again, that's just my opinion. That's just the way Spanish guitars are made, especially Andalusian guitars. Also Amando, even though you made a copy I'm sure your guitar has part of you in it..... at least I hope so. Why are so many luthiers obsessed with copying Reyes. Don't they want make their own guitars? Un saludo, Errol P.S. Great playing..... BTW, you're in compas.
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Errol Putigna http://www.myspace.com/flamencoguru http://www.youtube.com/flamencoguru
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Date Dec. 16 2008 8:33:12
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Videoclip of my Reyes Model Guitar (in reply to flamencoguru)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: flamencoguru Hello Amando, sounds like a great guitar. Congradulations!! You should be proud. As far as Reyes is concerned. They are great instuments but I don't see the reason for all of the hype. Yeah... Vicente, Tomatito and several others play them. Don't forget that many other players play other great guitars. I can tell you from a very reliable source that the majority of the Reyes guitars that come to the States have to go through an American luthier's hands for proper set up and finishing. I've probably played 10 Reyes in my life, 1 of which was excellent (it was at GSI and at that time,in 2002, they were asking $11,000. It was a 1976). The others were ok. I didn't see any real magic in them. Again, that's just my opinion. That's just the way Spanish guitars are made, especially Andalusian guitars. Also Amando, even though you made a copy I'm sure your guitar has part of you in it..... at least I hope so. Why are so many luthiers obsessed with copying Reyes. Don't they want make their own guitars? Un saludo, Errol P.S. Great playing..... BTW, you're in compas. I think I could answer this as well as anybody in saying that the Reyes plan is just another guitar plan that has some information on it that helps guitar makers get a little extra knowledge about the guitar. Every maker; especially the master builders, will have something intersting to show other builders. The fact that Reyes changes his patterns ever so slightly on occasion, shows us that not all of his experiments turn out excellent. From time to time they speak in another direction, but when a truly good Reyes winds up on a plan for builders to use, then it will always cause quite a stir in the building community. If more plans like this, of other master makers, were to show up on the list of recent plans, then I think there would be more interest in them. As it is, many of the guitar plans today don't present much information for the builder to use. Not many additional small details are presented on most plans.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Dec. 16 2008 10:24:09
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Armando
Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
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RE: Videoclip of my Reyes Model Guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
And another thing is that not all guitars work on the same principle Jose used, they can take on various top thicknesses, and according to many flamenco guitars, the top can be completely flat rather than graduated thinner at the edges. Tom Yes, i agree with you on that. Now as i know more about the Reyes design i have to admit, that the two designs are quite different and in some aspects opposed to each other. We should not forget that José builds classical guitars only. In contrast to all other spanish luthiers, he was the one who desided to take students and teach them, so i went to his course and learned from him. Now as he was my teacher, i'm somehow try to follow his line as i like the way he works. I've realized that many things are equal to the flamenco guitar making, some others aren't. So this other flamenco specific things are mostly known by theory, but maybe practically there are still some abilities that i'm missing. Regarding the flat soundboard, i know that most spanish makers from the pre Torres era have built their guitars with flat tops. After Torres successfully introduced the domed soundboard, most guitarmakers changed to this new design. Today i don't know any spanish flamenco guitar maker who builds with totally flat tops, so i think Reyes must be an exception. quote:
I believe it's better to, at least, show the student a measurement from which to work around, in a general area. Measurements are good to know when working with any musical instrument. And this doesn't mean the exact same thickness on all guitars of the same design but a medium from which to work. Well, i guess José didn't showed measurements because this could be easily taken as a reference measurement by some listeners. At his guitarmaking course he showed a detailled plan of his 1973 Julien Bream model, so there is nothing for him to hide. As i've allready mentioned i don't either support those guitarmakers who come up with certain measurement like they were valid in general for every guitar. José for instance showed us one of his guitars with the top being about 1,5mm thick. He added the comment, that such a thickness could only work with the stiffest sort of spruce. On the course there was a student who built his soundboard of quite bad quality spruce so the top ended having a thickness of 2,7mm in the center and José said that's fine. So you see, the difference might be more than a mm depending on the material used. Yes of course he could take the average between best and worst which would mean that a soundboard should be 2,1mm thick, but is that accurate? Therefore i agree with José that it is much more important to develop the senses and feel the wood and when the flex is right. regards Armando
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Date Dec. 21 2008 13:26:22
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