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Englemann Spruce
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)
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I dont get your point. Why do you want Cedar to be as thin as Spruce? A sounds very bad when you work it so thin. I know many other professional luthiers and none would agree with you. Cedar is softer, yes, but its a LOT lightter as well, so leaving cedar some 0,4 - 0,5mm thicker doesnt make it heavyer and it might even be stiffer. I personally like cedar for some guitars. Classicals, hybrids and Flamenco Negras I like very much with cedar. I dont prefer it over spruce but I find it to be equally good. Another thing is that Cedar has another tone or voice and this you might like or not. FX, I prefer spruce over cedar when it comes to Flamenco Blancas. I´ve made, I dont know, some 15 - 20 guitars with Engelmann Spruce. Its a great spruce, but I find it to be a little bit softer than Euro Spruce... But I also find it to be a little bit lighter, so I just left it a little bit thicker... Just a little bit... And I liked it. If my (and many others) feelings about Engelmann are correct, Then it means according to your thinking that Euro is superior to Engelmann?? In this case I would have to disagree.... I think they are both very good, but you have to work them differently. Back to the initial question, experience with Engelmann. I personal find that its an easyer tonewood than Euro. This because the trees are a lot bigger, so when you order the wood you get a lot of sets which are virtually identical. I ordered 10 sets from Canada and they were so even that they could be mixed without problems. In general, Engelmann is also more even over the grain than Euro. Its easy to find tops which have the same grain width on the whole board. All This makes building easyer because you dont have to compensate for differency in the wood. Why dont I work Engelmann anymore. First, I´m in Europe, so I get Euro tops cheaper than Americans, and it is a very good tonewood and a lot of clients will only accept euro spruce. second. I didn´t find a good supplier. There were way to many problems with Run-out and this I dont like at all. I´ve had less problemswith run-out on euro tops.
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Date Nov. 2 2008 23:06:05
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jshelton5040
Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
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RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson I know many other professional luthiers and none would agree with you. Cedar is softer, yes, but its a LOT lightter as well, so leaving cedar some 0,4 - 0,5mm thicker doesnt make it heavyer and it might even be stiffer. I personally like cedar for some guitars. Classicals, hybrids and Flamenco Negras I like very much with cedar. I dont prefer it over spruce but I find it to be equally good. Another thing is that Cedar has another tone or voice and this you might like or not. FX, I prefer spruce over cedar when it comes to Flamenco Blancas. Why dont I work Engelmann anymore. First, I´m in Europe, so I get Euro tops cheaper than Americans, and it is a very good tonewood and a lot of clients will only accept euro spruce. second. I didn´t find a good supplier. There were way to many problems with Run-out and this I dont like at all. I´ve had less problemswith run-out on euro tops. Anders makes well reasoned points as usual. Run out in Engelmann is so rampant that the only way I've found to get straight tops is to go out into the woods and select the right tree myself. I don't use it anymore cause I'm too old and fat to pack the billets back to the truck. It's back breaking work. All the Euro spruce I have has run out as well but it's not as severe. Since I live in the middle of Red Cedar country I've had the opportunity to try cedar from many different environments. All the cedar I've seen for sale by luthier suppliers is the really pretty stuff with fine grain and uniform red/brown color. I've found the cedar that grows along the coast with streaky wider grain and pale color is the best for flamencos. It's way more stiff than the darker colored varieties. Last summer I cut almost 100 tops out of very old billets of cedar. I sold all the really pretty pieces and kept only 17 for myself. They are all light in color, a little streaked and wonderfully stiff. I'm probably biased because I have access to the finest cedar but all the guitars I've built for myself over the years had cedar tops.
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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
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Date Nov. 3 2008 5:46:38
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to krichards)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: krichards Another problem with cedar for blancas would be the colour? A darker top with pale back/sides would look odd and maybe not very popular with customers? Egelmann/Euro spruce/sycamore/cypress are all pale and work well together without staining I think. Even though Ramirez found that cedar was a good tone wood, I feel that spruce is the better of the two to make flamenco guitars with. There are several advantages that I see, along with your idea for good color match, and that is strength, brightness, and sales ability according to tradition. If you make a flamenco negra, then that is another story, as you can alter the top wood to better match the sides and back. And the sales potential will be good for flamenco or perhaps classical players, so this idea would provide a little wider market. I've done this, and where a flamenco player doesn't buy it, there is potential for a classical player. But then the better tuning would be to use classical tuning machines rather than wooden pegs. I never use wooden pegs on a guitar that I build on spec. They are hard to sell. The only time I build with pegs is for a special order. The major point here is to build a great guitar and it will sell. I've never had a complaint about not using pegs.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Nov. 6 2008 5:13:42
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Englemann Spruce (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson In general, working with traditional bracing systems (Torres variations) I find that cedar looses sound quality, projection and especially the basses tend to be uncontrolable when working below 2,3 - 2,4mm and the trebles flimsy. Also I dont see the need for building thinner. In the end it has a lot to do with the relationship between weight and cross grain stiffness and cedar is a LOT lighter than spruce. A problem using old instruments as a reference is that a lot of them have been repolished and this means that a lot of them have been sanded in order to remove marks and dings. Maybe guitars are kept in better conditions in the US. Here there are many dead guitars with famous names on the label. Dead, mainly because of being poorly maintained and because of someone refinishing in a brutal way. Yes, I agree about the situation of not keeping older guitars in good repair and I've seen some old Santos guitars that had been sanded and refinished. Also, I examined a 1932 Santos with a 2.5 mm spruce top that was in pristine condition and it obviously had not been touched by a repairman. It was a great guitar. But Miguel Rodriguez built with thin cedar tops and his guitars now sell for $30,000 on the average to players and collectors. It's with this in mind that I learned how to make thin cedar tops that have sonority of sound. And of course we have the Greg Smallman's of the world that build paper thin cedar tops, with lattice style bracing. However, I'm inclined to agree, that on the average, it is more prudent to build a little thicker with cedar.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Nov. 18 2008 5:07:46
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