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What is a 'Negra' ?   You are logged in as Guest
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krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

What is a 'Negra' ? 
Ok , so a Blanca is made from Cypress and a Negra is made from Rosewood.
So far so good.

But what if you make a guitar with Maple of similar density to Rosewood? Is it Blanca or a pale negra?

and what if you make a guitar with African mahogany of similar density to Cypress? Blanca or Negra?

So is it the appearance of the guitar that defines it or the sound it makes?

I've been told 'You can't make a flamenco guitar out of mahogany'. Well I don't have enough experience to be confident, but my feeling is that you can. I've made two this way and one of them had a bright flamenco sound, the other has a more classical sound with more sustain. The construction and dimensions were the same so I can only assume the wood made the difference. (The soundboards were from different sources)

Can anyone give their views based on their experience of building or playing?

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Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2008 7:45:34
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
I would say any light colored wood is a blanca and any dark colored wood, a negra. You can make a flamenco guitar out of anything. What matters most is the top and setup.

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Tom Núñez
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2008 10:33:39
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
Agree. And I would also say that a negra and blanca could be desribed by theyr sound. A characteristic of blancas is theyr sharp bright ("agressive") sound. Some negras have a similar sound, but in general, negras produce a warmer, darker sound than a blanca. And that depends on the wood which is used. But for detais...ask a luthier..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2008 2:14:53
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
Well if light or dark wood makes it this or that and bright or dark sound makes it this or that, then what the hell do you call this?



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Don't look at me in that tone of voice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2008 7:11:30
 
Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
Blangra
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2008 7:18:44
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to Doitsujin) 
quote:

And I would also say that a negra and blanca could be desribed by theyr sound. A characteristic of blancas is theyr sharp bright ("agressive") sound. Some negras have a similar sound, but in general, negras produce a warmer, darker sound than a blanca. And that depends on the wood which is used


This is quite true for Cypress and Rosewood but my question is really about other woods commonly used for guitars, particularly Sycamore and Mahogany

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Kevin Richards

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2008 7:18:58
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to kovachian) 
quote:

Well if light or dark wood makes it this or that and bright or dark sound makes it this or that, then what the hell do you call this?



Ugly. That's just my opinion of course. I really don't see the need for such a guitar. It's just for looks.

Sycamore would be a blanca and Mahogany a negra. Sycamore was used a lot back in the old days because it was cheaper than cypress. It is still used today but mainly in student models.

You can certainly use Mahogany but I feel it's a bit too heavy for my tastes.

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Tom Núñez
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2008 8:01:36
 
gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
quote:

But what if you make a guitar with Maple of similar density to Rosewood? Is it Blanca or a pale negra?


The guitar featured on the La Bella string package is made of Maple, by Aaron green, take a look.

I think the terms blanca and negra refer today more to the sound and dynamics of the guitar then to its color, but originated from the typical woods used. So if the guitar is not made of the traditional woods you can have a pale negra style guitar or a dark blanca feel guitar?

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Guy
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2008 10:13:01
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
My few cents:

Blanca = is light colored back and sides
Negra = dark colored back and sides.

All different tonewoods used for back and sides have their own character, but the most important thing is what the builder does in order to determine sound.

You can make very soft, mellow and harmonic sounding classical guitars with a strong sustain using Cypress and you can make sharp sounding flamenco negras with a short sustain using rosewoods.

Another thing is that I find the best is to use the characters of the wood and Cypress and rosewood have different strong points. I always try to use the strong points of a tonewood because it´ll make the most potent guitar. And if someone ask me to build a negra that sounds like a blanca I will most certainly tell the possible client that the best thing for him/her would be to get a blanca.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2008 12:06:07
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

You can make very soft, mellow and harmonic sounding classical guitars with a strong sustain using Cypress and you can make sharp sounding flamenco negras with a short sustain using rosewoods.


So, you seem to be saying that the wood used for the back and sides is not the crucial thing but, how you use it that matters?

In which case why don't we all use some good quality spruce for the soundboard and the cheapest african mahogany for back and sides?

What is it that matters ?
Is it the density? Is the hardness? Is it the thickness/weight?

Or is it just tradition?

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Kevin Richards

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2008 12:27:06
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
In my opinion all woods for backs and sides have their sound. Thats one of the reasons that some people think that Flamenco Negras made with rosewoods sound classical. Because most classicals are made with rosewoods as well. So the two guitars share this woods basic sound.
Another thing is that a good flamenco and a good classical guitar are very different beasts made to work with different esthetics.

Density is important, but so is weight and of course damping. Even though you might find a piece of Maple with more or less the same weight and density as some rosewoods, it´ll sound different. They have very different tap tones, different damping and a different amount of oil.

I´m personally trying to stick with Med. Cypress and EI Rosewood. They are top end woods, relatively easy to get (cypress is getting difficult) and relatively ok priced and easy to sell.
I wont buy any latin rosewoods anymore. The market is full of cheat, high prices, low quality etc. bad for business.
I sometimes do tests. I have different rosewoods, Malaysean Blackwood, Padauk, Myrtle, CDN cypress.

Go ahead and use African Mahogany. I dont like the looks of Sapelly. It reminds me of doors in cheap apartments and there are many of them, but I´m sure you can make a nice guitar out of the wood. You could try Padauk as well. Very nice sound but splintery.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2008 17:18:46
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: krichards

So, you seem to be saying that the wood used for the back and sides is not the crucial thing but, how you use it that matters?

I've said for years that the difference in the sound of rosewood or cypress guitars is in the eye of the beholder. Blindfold the player and he won't be able to tell you which is which.
quote:


In which case why don't we all use some good quality spruce for the soundboard and the cheapest african mahogany for back and sides?

The truth is that the difference in price between cypress and mahogany is negligible in relation to the finished price of the guitar so why use mahogany or any other substitute if you can get cypress or E. Indian RW? Other factors also affect the choice of wood like how it mills, how it bends, how it takes finish, how long it takes to cure, etc.
quote:


What is it that matters ?
Is it the density? Is the hardness? Is it the thickness/weight?

Or is it just tradition?

There is tremendous variation within any species of tonewood. Selecting the best piece of wood and devining the ideal thickness is what a guitar maker is supposed to be doing. Not surprisingly, you get better at it with practice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2008 6:59:56
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to krichards) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: krichards

quote:

You can make very soft, mellow and harmonic sounding classical guitars with a strong sustain using Cypress and you can make sharp sounding flamenco negras with a short sustain using rosewoods.


So, you seem to be saying that the wood used for the back and sides is not the crucial thing but, how you use it that matters?

In which case why don't we all use some good quality spruce for the soundboard and the cheapest african mahogany for back and sides?

What is it that matters ?
Is it the density? Is the hardness? Is it the thickness/weight?

Or is it just tradition?



I think a lot of it has to do with tradition. If you are building a guitar for yourself, then use whatever wood you like but if you are building for the public, then build the guitar using the highest percentage of acceptable wood on the market.

This would be a no-brainer.

I have a potential customer who plays well and he told me that he prefers a blanca over a rosewood style. Chris Kamen tells me that he sells a much higher percentage of blancas over rosewood.

But Lester DeVoe tells me he has a bigger clientel for rosewood at this time. So, there you have it, make a choice. But if your choice is to sell the guitar, then use good business sense and stay with acceptable types of wood that the market will bear. Otherwise, try your choices of wood and find what works for you and how the market accepts your style.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2008 8:39:46
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: What is a 'Negra' ? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

If you are building a guitar for yourself, then use whatever wood you like but if you are building for the public, then build the guitar using the highest percentage of acceptable wood on the market.


You're right of course.
I'm still finding my way with flamenco building and I'm a compulsive experimenter too. And I'm a somewhat reluctant to totally follow tradition .

But yes, if i want to sell my guitars for a serious price then I need to sell what players want, and that's mainly Cypress or Rosewood

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Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2008 7:47:41
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