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RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)
Rejoneador:
I think it's wonderfull and beautifull, and sure the horse knows what it's doing and I think the really good horses enjoy it teasing that bull. (And I'am a "caballero" for 16 years now)
Something else for the ones intrested: Cuttting horses, smart animals :-):
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to henrym3483)
quote:
ok so your a vegetarian.grand
re my personality profile, thats grand as it is.
I've not questioned your personality profile - I would consider it rude to do so...quite the contrary - I have only questioned the way you have profiled me as a KFC/McDonalds eating tw@t.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jan Willem)
Hello,
These are the performers listed on the Youtube "more info" screen.
Al Cante en Directo, Fernando de La Morena, Diego Carrasco y Arcangel. Al Toque Moraito.
In my opinion, bullfighting and flamenco go hand in hand. To live flamenco, one must at the very least respect the culture and how deeply rooted bullfighting is in the Spanish culture. My father tells me stories of when he was a child, how his father was a benefactor to the arts. He would always support and befriend flamencos and bullfighters of that era (1930's). To be a flamenco aficionado, and not also be an aficionado of bullfighting is mostly unheard of, at least in Spain. That's not to say that one can not be a true flamenco aficionado, and choose not to watch or support bullfighting, but at least understand it's place in the flamenco culture. Additionally, if it were'nt for bullfighting, this breed of bulls (Taurus Ibericus) would eventually go instinct. They are specifically bred for their bravery and nobility. Finally, if you watch the episode of Puro y Jondo with Jose Merce and Tomatito, Jose explains the similarity of bullfighting and cante flamenco. He talks about the compas and duende of the bullfighter.
¡Que viva el arte! (de todos tipos)
José María Roldán Rascon, III, guitarrista flamenco y aficionado a los toros
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)
I worked at El Cordobes nightclub in 1969 as second guitarist to Manolo Vasquez. Manolo was a fantastic guitarist. One night his friend, Sabicas, came in the club. I heard Sabicas tell Manolo that if he had not become a flamenco guitarist, his life's dream was to be a bullfighter. He also spoke about Carmen Amaya, who used to study the moves of the bullfighter so as to emulate them in her dance routines. In addition, I recall how many starving people in Spain were fed by the bulls that were killed in the ring. This tradition still goes on. The poor of the city are given the bull to share which helps many who are hungry. The clip I provided a link to, was not meant to promote bullfighting. I loved the sound of the guitar and singer, and the way the matador moved to the music. I am sorry if this offended anyone.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jan Willem)
quote:
In my opinion, bullfighting and flamenco go hand in hand. To live flamenco, one must at the very least respect the culture and how deeply rooted bullfighting is in the Spanish culture. My father tells me stories of when he was a child, how his father was a benefactor to the arts. He would always support and befriend flamencos and bullfighters of that era (1930's). To be a flamenco aficionado, and not also be an aficionado of bullfighting is mostly unheard of, at least in Spain. That's not to say that one can not be a true flamenco aficionado, and choose not to watch or support bullfighting, but at least understand it's place in the flamenco culture. Additionally, if it were'nt for bullfighting, this breed of bulls (Taurus Ibericus) would eventually go instinct. They are specifically bred for their bravery and nobility. Finally, if you watch the episode of Puro y Jondo with Jose Merce and Tomatito, Jose explains the similarity of bullfighting and cante flamenco. He talks about the compas and duende of the bullfighter.
It's true that flamenco and bullfighting have been hardly connected in the past, because one century ago they were almost the only amusements that the andalusian people had, so it was really difficult to separate these two things. But nowadays i don't see the point to keep joining this two worlds. I'm from Sevilla and here bullfighting it's like a religion, but i know more people here against bullfighting that supporting it, it's normal, because a torture of an animal shouldn't be considered an art:
First, the bullfighter 'torea' a little bit the bull
Then a ' banderillero' comes and drives 4 spears in the back of the bulls. This spear stays hurting the bull until the end of the 'fight'.
The bullfighter torea again.
Then a man on a horse, provided with a big lance, hit the bull several times the bull, until he thinks it is damaged enough.
Is it not damaged enough??? The banderillero comes again with 4 more spears.
It's the final turn, the bullfighter torea a little bit, and for finishig he takes out a big narrow sword called estoque and try to kill the bull driving it through the body of the bull. From back to the chest. Usually it doesn't come at the first try, so he has to repeat the same 3 o 4 times, until the sword get through the bull.
If it is not enough to kill the bull, the bullfighter has to stab it with a knife just over its head, trying to hit the spinal cord. It's not succesful until the 3 or 4 try.
Finished!! If it was a good 'corrida', the prizes for the bullfighter could be the ears and the tail of the bull. Of course these pieces are cutted off the animal when it is still alive. And the bullfighter does a turn around the arena showing the prizes to the audience who applause and cheer a lot!! It's like the ancient Rome.
I consider myself really flamenco, but if it's necessary like bullfighting to be flamenco, don't hesitate anymore, i go to the disc shop and buy some cds of Iron Maiden and i start to be a Heavy Metal!
About Javier Conde, he is married with Estrella Morente, so it's normal he likes flamenco. I love Estrella Morente, but when she start singing about bullfighting i can't stand it.
Well, i hope i explained 'el arte del toreo' successfully, and you understand that it's not necessary to like the bull torture to love flamenco. I hope it'll be prohibited soon in whole Spain, as it is in Cataluña.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to henrym3483)
quote:
bet you thought i was some gun totting loony like the guy below
This picture is awesome!
quote:
I think it's wonderfull and beautifull, and sure the horse knows what it's doing and I think the really good horses enjoy it teasing that bull. (And I'am a "caballero" for 16 years now)
I read the book of Ernest Hemingway about bullfighting. He tells, that the horses are the poorest actors during the fights. They are covered with carpets. But these carpets arent protection, they are just to hide the outcoming intestin when the bull hit the horse.
quote:
I'll will PayPal $1000 dollars to anyone who can show me WHERE exactly in those videos posted above, the "torture" took place. The animal was teased yes, but I think alot of you are confusing the two terms.
If noone gives you their bank account data, would you pay the 1000$ on mine?
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
I read the book of Ernest Hemingway about bullfighting. He tells, that the horses are the poorest actors during the fights. They are covered with carpets. But these carpets arent protection, they are just to hide the outcoming intestin when the bull hit the horse.
A very good read ("Death in the Afternoon") and he does a great job of describing, not judging.
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to mediocre)
Great posts from Pimientito and mediocre. That explanation was really interesting if gruesome!! AntonioM I guess you didn't know what a can of worms you were opening when you made that post.
And the points about the way our meat is produced are valid too. I do my best to buy free range stuff, but I know even then there's no guarantee the animals have been treated well before they were killed. My husband doesn't eat meat, and I wish I could give it up too, but I can't help it - I'm a carnivore !
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to mediocre)
quote:
First, the bullfighter 'torea' a little bit the bull
Then a ' banderillero' comes and drives 4 spears in the back of the bulls. This spear stays hurting the bull until the end of the 'fight'.
The bullfighter torea again.
Then a man on a horse, provided with a big lance, hit the bull several times the bull, until he thinks it is damaged enough.
Is it not damaged enough??? The banderillero comes again with 4 more spears.
It's the final turn, the bullfighter torea a little bit, and for finishig he takes out a big narrow sword called estoque and try to kill the bull driving it through the body of the bull. From back to the chest. Usually it doesn't come at the first try, so he has to repeat the same 3 o 4 times, until the sword get through the bull.
If it is not enough to kill the bull, the bullfighter has to stab it with a knife just over its head, trying to hit the spinal cord. It's not succesful until the 3 or 4 try.
Finished!! If it was a good 'corrida', the prizes for the bullfighter could be the ears and the tail of the bull. Of course these pieces are cutted off the animal when it is still alive. And the bullfighter does a turn around the arena showing the prizes to the audience who applause and cheer a lot!! It's like the ancient Rome.
I consider myself really flamenco, but if it's necessary like bullfighting to be flamenco, don't hesitate anymore, i go to the disc shop and buy some cds of Iron Maiden and i start to be a Heavy Metal!
About Javier Conde, he is married with Estrella Morente, so it's normal he likes flamenco. I love Estrella Morente, but when she start singing about bullfighting i can't stand it.
Well, i hope i explained 'el arte del toreo' successfully, and you understand that it's not necessary to like the bull torture to love flamenco. I hope it'll be prohibited soon in whole Spain, as it is in Cataluña.
First off, thank you for understanding my point about the connection between flamenco and bullfighting. This connection was present in the past, and is still present. Regarding your animal rights rhetoric, my response is simply nolo contendere. This thread was not started to debate the merits of bullfighting.
to Doitsujin:
Jan is talking about rejoneo in her post, not the horses of the picadores. During Hemingway's time, it is true many picador's horses were killed in the ring. Most the stock came from slaughter houses in Chicago. At the present time, picadores uses draft horses for their mounts. The peto they wear does offer protection. They are however vulnerable if the bull topples the picador's horse over.
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to henrym3483)
How does facing an animal with a gun prove your metal???
How about facing a polar bear with a potato gun??
Surely the only way to prove your metal is to go toe to toe with whatever you wanna fight, I mean come on give the animal a fair chance, at least use a spear or catapult or something, ideally your bare hands!!!
I don't know too much about bullfighting and therefore do not wish to comment to much but I'd have to say I kinda agree with pimientito.
Who am I to damn hundreds of years of culture and tradition purely because the only part I really understand, is that the animal usually ends up dead. It's so easy to be all "right on" and PC and say this is wrong or this is right. This isn't a problem with bullfighting or the spanish, its a problem with humankind. Its no secret we love to Kill!!! Animals/cultures/People its in us all somewhere.
Anyone seen/know of Louis Theroux, a British doc maker that goes into weird cultures and experiences them. eg, Swingers in the US or Men that use Mail order brides services, Even US wrestling. The most recent episode I saw was about big game hunting in South Africa. Ok so Hard core huntsmen get a map, a gun, some supplies, and a skilled tracker to find the animals and prepare to spend days on safari, braving the elements to secure their prize.......... Actually No, thats not what happens.
To my surprise this particular ranch in Africa bread animals for the sole purpose of being hunted by rich Americans (and their wives in one case). It was basically prepackaged hunting with virtually no skill involved at all. In a nutshell the hunters would be taken to a little camouflaged hut next to some water and after about half an hour or less an animal would show up at the water hole for a nice drink and Blamo!!!! Quick fix hunting! Take home the dead animal of your choice or your money back.
The main problem with this seems obvious, its not to test the hunters skill and its not for food! So the only benefit for these so called hunters, is the act of killing something. (the little glint in this one guys eye was truly disturbing as he posed with his Kudu.) What would have been more time, money and space saving was if theyd simply put these guys in a bow room with an animal and let them shoot the thing in the head. much like Henrys method.
While it immediately may seem wrong and unjust there was something REALLY, REALLY small inside of me that sort of understood. I'd never want to do this kind of thing, but deep inside us all there are base animalistic instincts and urges from 1000s of years ago that some people still choose to tap into and explore.
quote:
bullfigthing rig's the match somewhat thus the matadors are really cheating themselves of a TRUE challenge to their skills.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
How does facing an animal with a gun prove your metal???
How about facing a polar bear with a potato gun??
Surely the only way to prove your metal is to go toe to toe with whatever you wanna fight, I mean come on give the animal a fair chance, at least use a spear or catapult or something, ideally your bare hands!!!
stu,
african game are possible the most dangerous animals on the planet. some of the hunting books with my father has given me over the years would put shivers down your spine, and just having a gun never gaurantees you will come out of the encounter alive. last year 35 hunters died in africa due to hunting with either lions, buffalo, elephant etc.
you might say its there own fault and some may cheer hoorahh, but these people took the choice to take their life in their own hands and paid the ultimate price for it. you either have to be incredibly brave, stupid or naive to go hunt african game.
you really are taking your life in your hands hunting these creatures. i myself however would rather remain at home playing my guitar and the odd sporting outing just for meat. venison costs about £20 per pound, and one animal would do for meat for over 4 months.
quote:
Anyone seen/know of Louis Theroux, a British doc maker that goes into weird cultures and experiences them. eg, Swingers in the US or Men that use Mail order brides services, Even US wrestling. The most recent episode I saw was about big game hunting in South Africa. Ok so Hard core huntsmen get a map, a gun, some supplies, and a skilled tracker to find the animals and prepare to spend days on safari, braving the elements to secure their prize.......... Actually No, thats not what happens.
To my surprise this particular ranch in Africa bread animals for the sole purpose of being hunted by rich Americans (and their wives in one case). It was basically prepackaged hunting with virtually no skill involved at all. In a nutshell the hunters would be taken to a little camouflaged hut next to some water and after about half an hour or less an animal would show up at the water hole for a nice drink and Blamo!!!! Quick fix hunting! Take home the dead animal of your choice or your money back.
The main problem with this seems obvious, its not to test the hunters skill and its not for food! So the only benefit for these so called hunters, is the act of killing something. (the little glint in this one guys eye was truly disturbing as he posed with his Kudu.)
i would not even consider this hunting and i would condem it outright.
to hunt in my view, you got to look for the animal, find the animal, stalk up to the animal within shooting distance and then take the shot. and alot of hunters do miss, or foul up the stalk by walking into the wind or causing noise so the animal gets away. this type of hunting in my view is the only honourable way of giving the animal a fair chance. they have great eyesight and hearing compared to us and they should see it coming. if the hunter succeeds at the end of the day he has earned it.
quote:
The main problem with this seems obvious, its not to test the hunters skill and its not for food! So the only benefit for these so called hunters, is the act of killing something. (the little glint in this one guys eye was truly disturbing as he posed with his Kudu.)
some people go for the trophy, never really intrested me from day one because it serves no purpose, at least eating the meat or using the pelt for leather or the bones for knife handles serves a purpose and the animal did not die in vain.
quote:
What would have been more time, money and space saving was if theyd simply put these guys in a bow room with an animal and let them shoot the thing in the head. much like Henrys method.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jan Willem)
I agree with mediocre. Since few months now I've been doing a schoolwork on animal rights. I've read many arguments everyone should be aware of and now consider animal moral inferiority to human beings a discrimination the same as feminism or racism. I apologize for my first post here, I didn't mean it this way, but, having quite some (not at all only theorethical) experience with animals I really can't digest the torture and all arogant treatment to animals people are taking the rights for. I'm not the one that has right to judge the foreign culture, but I take my right to express my opinion: I believe bullfighting isn't morally acceptable so it should become a thing of the past, as did the slavery system in USA (for example). IMO
Does this make me less flamenco? Anyway, I'd like to know what the ACTUAL influence of the bullfighting on flamenco is. I doubt gitanos (flamencos) decades ago, when the flamenco was getting it's form, practiced any bullfighting, I doubt they could afford it. I believe it was more a thing of a higher class where creation and practice of flamenco didn't happen. I only see the connection from the other side: flamenco influenced bullfighting which makes a big difference... But I'd be glad if someone more knowledgeable tells more about this.
Matic
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vengo de los san migueles si no me caso este año que yo me caso el año que viene
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jan Willem)
Wow, great thread. I thought the vid was incredible. Thanks to AntonioM for posting it. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could not see the relationship to flamenco. And to hear flamenco accompanying it, was very powerful to me. The whole idea of bullfights and all, I can understand the opposition to it, but it has existed for longer than any of us, and it will continue past any of our lifetimes as well. There are many objectional things in the world practised by other cultures than my own, and while I might not like them, I don't have to participate. I personally am not so offended by bullfighting that I feel the desire to protest. I really appreciated the posts by Henry about hunting, and Pimientito, as well as Jaquarda. I also appreciated the posts of mediocre, who presented his views clearly. I can't imagine facing a lion in the wild with a gun as my only protection, and I have no desire to face a bull with a cape. To say that it doesn't take huge cajones to do either I think is factually inaccurate.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Matic)
Matic - I can see that you are passionate about about animal rights and it is not my intention to change your opinions on them. Just to say that when you (angrily) suggested violence towards bullfighting crowds it reminded me of people who justify murder of abortion doctors. This is not a healthy attitude to solving moral problems.
There is a growing division in Spain (especially among younger Spaniards) on weather to ban bull fighting or not. To quickly answer your comment, you have to understand that Spain and especially Andalucia was particularly poor after the civil war. Starvation was common. In my opinion, countries with large populations of starving people do not place animal rights above their own. It is only in western cultures where have enough to eat that we question the feelings of animals.
Far from being a sport of the rich, it would be the dream of a poor youth to become a bullfighter for fame and fortune. This is not unlike a western youth from the wrong side of town wanting to be a boxer, training in a sport that could potentially injure or kill him, for fame and glory. Gitanos especially would be prepared to risk injury to earn money.
BTW- The idea that bull fighting is not dangerous and the bulls are drugged and tamed and tortured before fights is not accurate. Bulls are specially bred to be aggressive and fighters/public often get gored and killed. The bulls are mostly reared outdoors and well treated up until the fight.They are extremely dangerous and you cannot walk across land with bulls in Spain. The neck muscles are weakened to both enrage and lower the head of a large bull. Dont forget an average bull is nearly half a tonne of psycho-testosterone horn and muscle.
The bullrings provided (and still do), opportunities for whole communities to get together socially and be entertained. This would be the Spanish equivalent of a baseball or cricket match. As Antonio correctly said, the knowledge of a beef feast afterwards greatly increased the blood lust. Even today most small towns can turn part of the centre in to a bull ring for annual bull fights. This is not for the elite...the whole town will attend with the rich on the shady side of the ring and the poor in the sun.
On the subect of how this relates to flamenco - The fighter is judged to be good or bad depending on how he moves, how close he can get to the bull and how close he can escape being gored. From this develops much of the stances and moves in Flamenco and especially in the male baile. The future of bull fights is a seperate issue but the historical link has to be acknowledged. You are no less flamenco for not liking it!!
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Matic)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Matic I doubt gitanos (flamencos) decades ago, when the flamenco was getting it's form, practiced any bullfighting, I doubt they could afford it. I believe it was more a thing of a higher class where creation and practice of flamenco didn't happen. I only see the connection from the other side: flamenco influenced bullfighting which makes a big difference... But I'd be glad if someone more knowledgeable tells more about this. Matic
Originally bullfighting was only for the aristocracy and was done on horseback. The first ever bullfight in Spain was in 711 AD long before flamenco developed. However Felipe V banned the aristocracy from taking part and commoners took over. As they could not afford horses they did it standing and by 1700's this was the norm. Nowadays it has reverted to the rich folk again, Javier Conde for example is from a very rich family, but before one of the ways a poor Gitano could make money and a name for himself was in the bullring.
Emilio's album is called Temple, after the elegant movement a matador makes with his cape. At Javier Conde's wedding to Estrella Morente ( not the only flamenco/torero match) there were more than 5,000 peope lining the streets outside the church shouting "Torero ! Torero !" and mobbing the bullfighters as they exited. Women from 13 to 80 screaming like they were the Beatles. Meanwhile the flamencos, most of them very well known such as the Habichuelas, Carmen Linares, Joquin Cortes watched in awe. I heard one flamenco comment that they had chosen the wrong career to which Emilio replied "Ah yes but we could only manage goats"!!
In the studio we often have to break for a few hours if there is an important fight on. Jaime Heredía's daughter Marina is married to a Torero and Jaime himself was a bullfighter when younger. I think that someone already posted that it is not considered a blood sport but an art. It is not that they kill the bull but how they kill it. The audience will boo if it is not a clean kill.
In an abbattoir a thousand pigs will be sent to their death squeeling and ****ting themselves without ever seeing a green field. Chickens are packed into horrendous cramped conditions and fed crap. Sheep are transported live all over Europe. It's a fact we kill animals, mostly in secret where the public never sees the meat they eat.
The Bullfight does not pretend to be anything else but the art of killing a bull.
Talking of which I had rabo del toro today for lunch. It can be the best meat you will ever eat as the bulls are bred exclusively in the wild and fed the best food. They live far longer and in far better conditions than cows bred for eating.
And of course you dont need to love the corrida to be considered flamenco. My Harold is a vegetarian and abhors killing animals for any purpose. He will not even wear leather. As far as he is concerned bullfighting is simply on a par with eating meat but he would never condemn people who eat meat or bullfight. And he is considered muy flamenco. So dont worry guys. No-one will make you go to the bullring.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jan Willem)
My late friend, Vicente Gomez, was the flamenco guitarist in the 1941 Movie, Blood and Sand, starring Tyrone Power and Rita Hayworth. Vicente made the piece ROMANZA DE AMOR popular at that time when he played it in that movie.
In early 1970 when I was a young starving flamenco guitarist, Vicente hired me to paint his home. I did not even own my own bed in those days. (Today I am an old starving guitarist). During those weeks we painted together, Vicente spoke alot about bullfighting and his early days in Spain. He, like Sabicas, would have tried bullfighting if he had not made such a name for himself as a guitarist.
Vicente told me that when the famous bullfighter, Manolete was killed by the Miura bull named Islero, General Franco declared 3 days of morning in Spain. Th
After the sucess of that movie, Vicente opended a bullfighting school. He also opened a flamenco club in New York called the Zambra. In 1972, I spent a day with him and did a photo shoot for him.
For those of you who are interested in Manolete, Adrian Brody and Penelope Cruz just completed a movie about the life of Manolete. Here is the trailer:
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)
original: Matic I doubt gitanos (flamencos) decades ago, when the flamenco was getting it's form, practiced any bullfighting, I doubt they could afford it
quote:
Actually, most of the greatest bullfighters of the 20th century have been gitanos from very humble beginnings. To be a great bullfighter (on foot) takes courage, artistry, dedication etc....but not a lot of money. The gitanos would strive to become bullfighters to raise their family out of poverty. The only bullfighters that have come from well-to-do families (many even aristocracy) have been rejoneadores (mounted bullfighters). This is because a rejoneador has a much larger infrastructure to maintain...mostly in his stable of horses.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jaquarda)
i think even camaron de la isla wanted to be a matador at one stage, thank god he gave up on that idea. apparently him and paco went to alot of bullfights in their youth to pass the time.
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jaquarda)
quote:
can someone please explain how I get the quote into the text box?
Select the quote before you click on 'post reply'. It will appear automatically in the box.
Or... if you have the 'reply' window open already, when you click on 'quote, you'll see the word 'quote' twice in brackets in the message. You have to paste the quoted words in between the two sets of brackets. (I can't copy it here or it won't show correctly)
RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jan Willem)
It's clear the relationship between flamenco and bullfighting, it's imposible not to see but I meant that it's not necessary to know about bullfight to know about flamenco. Here in ther formum i think most of the people have never watched a corrida in their lives, but they can express themselves in a flamenco way really well as i watch in their video uploads.
About if bullfighting is an art i don't want to discuss, because you can make art from averything, i'm sure that if i kill a dog in a beautiful stetical way, everybody will say that i'm a killer instead of an artist. Bad habits change the way the people think, and i'll never accept the sacrifice of a bull as an art piece, not because it is not beautiful (i think it's disgusting, but everybody has their opinion), because you are making an animal suffer inecessarily.
i got to calm down!! i'll get a heart attack if i keep writing this way!!!
Mmm, i think the people who says cajones in this discussion mean cojones. COJONES!
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It's like the ancient Rome. 
Anyway, I'd like to know what the ACTUAL influence of the bullfighting on flamenco is. I doubt gitanos (flamencos) decades ago, when the flamenco was getting it's form, practiced any bullfighting, I doubt they could afford it. I believe it was more a thing of a higher class where creation and practice of flamenco didn't happen. I only see the connection from the other side: flamenco influenced bullfighting which makes a big difference... But I'd be glad if someone more knowledgeable tells more about this. 
i got to calm down!! i'll get a heart attack if i keep writing this way!!! 
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