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While I'm at it I feel the need to raise a question concerning the codification/writing of the Bulerias in the Encounter series of books.
I have the Gerardo Nunez book and the other day I was also checking out some other "Encounter" volumes at my local flamenco guitar store.
I had noticed in the Nunez book that most Buleria falsetas would actually start one full beat ahead of the barline - why is that? I noticed the same thing in a Moraito "Encounter" book therefor I came to think that this is a standard way of notating Bulerias: always start the cycle of 12 beats one beat ahead of the bar.... this is confusing, because after so much time reading and playing music I had come to think that "beat one" is in most cases is the place where one would start to count from and put one's foot down. Why is there a discrepancy? What's written doesn't feel right, but then again I might have to make a mountainous effort and try to secure this groove... written in this awkward way, but it should not be so hard.
This is very confusing. I guess "Encounter" decided to notate it such because the Buleria's "one" is actually beat "twelve" of the cycle....I don't know for they don't mention it anywhere in the preface or anywhere else for that matter. If it's not the case, Nunez and Moraito feel the Buleria-groove in a way that my mind can't grasp at all - it's the only thing I can think of - so before I go and plunge into the deep-end is there anything I need to know so as to avoid confusion at a later date?
This bar-line's placement does not make sense to me. No way that I can tap my foot to the music that's written.... I've tried, and failed.
Is there a little secret involved here? Or do I need to become a multi-talented rocket-scientist?
Any help is most appreciated even if it generates more confusion....
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
maybe he starts on 10... i think your confusion comes from dealing too much with written notes instead of just listening where the compas is at the moment. The feeling should be in the head or ear, not on the paper imo.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
The 12, 3, 6, 8 and 10 are accented in Buleria. A different and more popular pattern accents the 12, 3, 7, 8 and 10. Because the 1 is not accented Buleria usually starts on the 12 and the musical notation is correct--although a bit counterintuitive--in this regard. After the first cycle is completed how the Buleria initially began is irrelevant. When you count you can use the accented beats and correct numbers. Some people shift the numbers and start by counting the 12 as the 1, but this can lead to confusion. Also, instructors such as Graf-Martinez offer an analysis of Buleria rhythm using two different alternating time signatures per 12 count cycle.
There is a free flamenco metronome on this site—download it and give it a try.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: greeny
This bar-line's placement does not make sense to me. No way that I can tap my foot to the music that's written.... I've tried, and failed.
Is there a little secret involved here? Or do I need to become a multi-talented rocket-scientist?
Thanks, G.
Dont worry when people here try and tell you that being able to read has confused you. You are one hundred percent right, the edition is confusing you because it is written ar@e over tit.
It cracks me up that people who don't really read condescend to try and explain away difficulties that readers are having .....with reading.
Here is the first buleria from the encuentro nunez book with the correct time signatures and the anacrusis in the right place. It is much MUCH clearer isn't it ? The transcription is by Claude Worms and is part of the Duende Flamenco series.
When the music is written weirdly this can make the reader as confused as the non-reader. Kind of like people with no umbrellas telling you umbrellas make you wetter having sold you an umbrella with holes in it.
Beware of vested interests, anyone who produces material written in the encuentro style is liable to say that the clear and pointless flaws are not important. They are perpetrating the madness that is flamenco notation.The only advantage that I see to this is that the problems that they throw seem to give untold comfort to people who can't be bothered to learn to read music.
The conventions that Encuentro follows in it's buleria transcriptions are flawed,pointless and confusing. I personally am no longer prepared to pay a single penny for a poorly notated edition. Hooray for people like worms and Hererro who have seen through this bulsh@t. And shame those who know better but are too concerned with pandering to the dogma of the illiterate to make a stand for common sense.
My insistance on this point and others like it (as well as my clear lack of diplomatic skills) goes a long way to explain the nonsense I put up with here.
I will prepare and record a short piece for you explaining buleria compas which includes pulgar excercise. I have been promising this to n85e (Jeff) for some time but have only just got my scanner and mic working (semi properly). Obviously the lukewarm to rude responses my ideas receive here don't exactly motivate me.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Buddha, no need to go through lots of trouble explaining the groove - I've got/understand the groove alright, it's just that this super-crazy Encounter-notation is really frustrating on the eyes, and consequently the brain.
This morning I re-wrote (using pencil, paper and eraser) a couple of Nunez falseta examples, displacing the bar line (one beat to the left) and I believe I found the solution - it's obvious the notation then starts to make sense.
How stupid of these people at Encounter, because it simply diminishes the tuitional value of the otherwise excellent materials on offer. It baffles me completely!
Lunch break is over so it's....Back to the guitar, as of right now!.... I'm busy inspecting the fingering techniques you spelled out in the other post....
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
Pgh-Flamenco, I almost forgot to thank you for the fine links.
A lot of words were spilled in that first 10-10 clip - the guy is certainly a good player!
Still, I find the "old-way" of counting, starting out by calling "12" the first beat of the cycle very confusing - why not simply call it "one"?
No need to go into debate about this for it's simply a small thing one needs to "know" in order to understand the idiom.
What if all of a sudden we would move our common alphabet over by one letter, say pretending "z" to be our new "a"..... That would make for some pretty intense head scratching!
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: greeny
What if all of a sudden we would move our common alphabet over by one letter, say pretending "z" to be our new "a"..... That would make for some pretty intense head scratching!
All in good fun, Cheers!
G.
Well greeny let me answer this on behalf of the wise people here. This would simply demonstrate that learning to read was a waste of your time. In fact anyone who cant read or write obviously has an innate superiority over you becasuse being able to read makes you deaf.
Whilst the above is obvious rubbish, you will need to get used to agreeing with it if you are gonna hang around here much longer. Clearly, I am not .
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: greeny
This morning I re-wrote (using pencil, paper and eraser) a couple of Nunez falseta examples, displacing the bar line (one beat to the left) and I believe I found the solution - it's obvious the notation then starts to make sense.
How stupid of these people at Encounter, because it simply diminishes the tuitional value of the otherwise excellent materials on offer. It baffles me completely!
G.
Hi Greeny, basically I have been going on about this for ages. Very few people here seem to know enough about music notation to agree with what i say. The few that do are too busy confirming the prejudices of their little gang of followers (ah I miss primary school) to admit how important it is. Then there are the people who sort of readers (amature classical players) who don't get it either but have caught on to the flamenco music cant be written down nonsense.
I am so terribly glad that you have spotted this and pointed out how crazy it is. Unfortunately there are more deep deep problems with the notation of other forms (sevilannas and fandangos are particularly bad).
Unfortunately it seems to be a matter of pride to leave it in the crazy state it is in. But I do think that there is a need for a debate becuase it just keeps persisting there are many more editions in this fomat than there are sensible ones.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
quote:
The conventions that Encuentro follows in it's buleria transcriptions are flawed, pointless and confusing.
If this is the case you had better give Maestro Nunez a call. Apparently he's lost without your advice.
That's terrifically witty. But somewhat irrelevant.
You do not speak for Nunez you speak for yourself. And you, my bandwagon jumping friend, are clearly lost with or without my advice.
I suspect that Nunez himself would offer a more reasoned and interesting answer to my points. Perhaps you could use your close relationship with him to have him discuss the matter with me personally. I believe we have already reached the limits of your understanding.
Since I feel that you would benefit (in the meantime) from a more attentive rereading of all of my posts please focus your attention to line 2/3 of my last one in the thread.
As a point of fact Encuentro have been using this system since the inception of their video series. To the best of my knowledge Gerardo was not available to offer his advice at that point.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)
David, you’ve put an extraordinary amount of effort in your posts this past week. You may have noticed that your point score has decreased even with all of your hard work (I did not rate you negatively).
While I appreciate the opportunity to learn I can’t say the overall tone, as well as some of the comments you’ve made, have done anyone any good.
As for this clique or bandwagon you constantly refer to—as far as I can tell it does not exist. Some of the people who used to post here six months ago rarely participate anymore and that’s unfortunate—and honestly I think it’s the constant pressure of having to respond to the possibility of harsh and unreasonable criticism that has driven them away.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
That is fair comment fair comment for the most part.
I have no idea what my score is. But if there is no bandwagon, where are the negative points you talk of coming from ? Perhaps this is part of the negativity of which I am more than a little tired.
Basically I am reactive. I go to a lot of trouble, primarily in putting my thoughts into action by practicing and studying. Then when I take the time to explain them I here I have ill considered and glib responses rubbish them to a chorus of inane(and as you say tacet and vindictive) approval.
I am becoming less and less prudent as I reach the end of my tether. I am often harsh but very seldom without reason.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)
You could try limiting your posts, and any additional commentary, to factual statements. Eliminate any harsh criticisms—you might even write a response to a post and wait a few days, edit it again and then submit it. This is a hobby for many of the Foro members—they can wait a few days. This could be a chance for you to attempt to communicate with people in a way that is quite different from your daily face-to-face communications.
I don’t like the idea of people being chased away and I am not in contact with anyone on this forum outside of the posts which are plainly visible to you and everyone else. I suspect few people here either maintain relationships with each other or have the opportunity to communicate with each other beyond this discussion board. As for negative ratings: Either people were confused by what you had written or were responding to the unnecessary criticism that often accompanies your posts—both of which you have the power to change.
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
This is all good advice and well concieved. It is also hypocritical on every level.
I will be restricting my posts, as from tuesday, to zero. I am sure you will see the numbers of postings and the general level of debate rise from that moment onwards.
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to guitarbuddha)
As The Dude in The Big Lebowski said, "would you just calm the **** down", David!! just kidding.
I don't see anyone around now really challenging you about this specific issue... maybe I missed something. John made a harmless joke and the whole score/rating crock o' ****e... don't pay attention to it. It would be removed if it were my forum.
I know this is very personal for you, but what do you expect will happen if you convince these faceless people, the "bandwagon"... An uprising or grass roots protest against some of the powers that publish music? All these flamenco players just happily get what they can for transcriptions and luckily you are there to warn them or help 'em out, if they're ignorant about reading music, about what you steadfastly maintain is nonsense. You might also try to go straight to the source, write an essay/letter to Encuentro or whomever you believe to be the masterminds or "perpetrators".
And listen, I'm frustrated by this method of writing, too. But as you alluded yourself, there's good stuff and there's bad stuff out there. And you're very likely right in suggesting that Gerardo had no sign-off on the transcriptions... but we just don't know that do we, dude? It's unclear to me in what fashion the majority of pro flamencos in Spain write music and if they have reasons for it, who knows. Maybe Ricardo can illuminate those vacancies for us. And maybe it is in fact just what the Spaniards or the Encuentro guys do, but likely the majority of Spaniards just don't care as much about writing, irrespective of whether they should or not, because as we all know, this music evolved orally. So perhaps we need to exercise patience and understanding while they sort it out, whatever they may actually do, even if we are indeed "correct" after all. Otherwise we are fascists.
You know what... this writing style is probably one mostly foreign to Andalucian's based on whoever invented the twisted 12 count system for understanding rhythms, which is still a mystery to me. Wasn't it Estela Zatania who suggested it was actually a North American invention? I don't remember.
Anyway, of course this notation doesn't make sense to people who were taught to read in a certain way, but have some forgiveness... I mean, your attitude seems very judgmental and tinged with bitterness at this point. Do you speak English, sir? Yes, you do very well, but do you speak to people with humility, however way they may be treating you in return, or however stubborn they may be? It does take courage, I know. We all get frustrated by personal things. Let's have a good time. I mean... so you had a bad day... shake it off and smile after a while.
You have undertaken a great burden in trying to educate or from some people's perspectives, convert the beliefs of other people, and either way it is tiring WORK as John said. So do not be so noble!!
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to Conrad)
The Big Lebowski what a great film!! One of my favourites, thanks for reminding me Conrad!!
Buddha, don't leave. You contribute a lot to this forum and speak from a position of knowledge musically. I don't think there is some groundswell of feeling taking your points away - no idea what happened there. You just say it like it is (not emulating ToddK are you? ) and maybe sometimes people misunderstand your intentions.
John, you stick around too. You contributed some good pointers in those links to youtube stuff, which I am going to watch again, as I'd forgotten about them. They are worth a second look.
OK nobody leave!!! It's not allowed! By order of..... err........ me!!
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
quote:
it simply diminishes the tuitional value of the otherwise excellent materials on offer.
Guys, this is quite a strong/ heated argument over a fairly technical point. I can kind of see both sides. On the one side is an excellent reader who wants to see some sensible standardisation in writing down buleria so that one could for example play a flamenco piece from a score and make it sound flamenco.
quote:
Very few people here seem to know enough about music notation to agree with what i say
Then there are the people who sort of readers (amature classical players) who don't get it either but have caught on to the flamenco music cant be written down nonsense.
I am not sure I agree with you on the idea that to play a Buleria in a flamenco way from reading score is possible without having an already very extensive knowledge of compas before hand....or a very good idea of the recording. I have seen score (like trafalgar) played by very good classical readers and it does not sound flamenco...at all. Even if its technically in compas, the phrasing cannot be expressed in a flamenco way from the page.
Many of the best flamenco musicians do not read or need to read music. As far as I know, Nuñez does not read music, and certainly does not need to to compose. If he did he would hand everyone score on his courses. The idea of learning flamenco in a Classical way...by having students read and reproduce falsetas from score is not to my mind the ideal way of learning flamenco. Flamenco is certainly not composed that way, mostly not taught that way, not assimilated that way and not performed that way either.
Its not that flamenco cant be written down, its that most people just want to have a paper version of the fingering and chord shapes etc. to learn the falsetas, to keep material from being forgotten, and know how another player nailed that picado run etc. and can use that information to add to to their knowledge of compas and phrasing to produce music that is flamenco. I cant imagine trying to learn a piece purely from a score without a teacher or recording.
I dont what this bandwagon is and why you take such deep offence to people who want to learn material in a non classical way.
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: greeny
Pgh-Flamenco, I almost forgot to thank you for the fine links.
A lot of words were spilled in that first 10-10 clip - the guy is certainly a good player!
Still, I find the "old-way" of counting, starting out by calling "12" the first beat of the cycle very confusing - why not simply call it "one"?
No need to go into debate about this for it's simply a small thing one needs to "know" in order to understand the idiom.
What if all of a sudden we would move our common alphabet over by one letter, say pretending "z" to be our new "a"..... That would make for some pretty intense head scratching!
All in good fun, Cheers!
G.
There IS a reason, and Encuentro people are not "stupid" for doing it. It all makes sense when you start accompanying dance. I mean the counting thing. You see the music of bulerias is "related" to solea, rhythmically. The count thing ties it together. From tempo 60 bpm for solea, you can increase up to 260 bpm, yet keep the count. That IS possible, and believe it or not actually happens in flamenco dance.
Along the way of that, you can sense changes in the "feel" of the music, but something about the structure, the form, stays the same throughout. Simply using the 12 count it is quite clear what is happening and WHERE you are in the music. But notating that, you guys are right, the FEELING of the meter is lost, or needs to change. But how can you do that if the tempo increases steadily? And the count never changes??
Guitarbuddah's jpg is CORRECT for me. That is rhythm feeling MEANT by the piece, but notice even HE had to put the count underneath to CLEARIFY what was going on. That is real important, and that is how one ties things into SOLEA. In a very slow solea, yes count 1 IS like the down beat of the cycle, foot tap on each count (1,4,7,10). Meaning along the way (speeding up to buleria tempo), the down beat shifts to the accents (12,6). Playing for dance easily reveals how and why that happens. If it were me notating, I would change the meter precisely at the time the guitarist's foot tap changes to the accents instead of each count. But...not every guitarist does the change the same way or at the same time...and that is OK!!!
At some point in history, the transcribers decided to tie all the 12 count rhythms together and notate them ALL THE SAME, so there was no need to write out the count cycle underneath like Guitarbuddha did. So only ONE way to write, solea, Solxbul, Alegrias, bulerias, all the escobilla melodies and falsetas, etc, etc, all the same. Typically 4 bars of 3/4 where the ONLY thing that distinguishes is the tempo. So basically, the transcribers use the system of meters in standard notation to clearify the COUNT cycle for all those palos.
You guys are absolutely correct that the true rhythmic FEELING is not being represented correctly, but it is assumed that one is already familiar a bit with the concept of compas (as opposed to just being a good sight reader) before using a transcription. I personally am torn between how to notate the best, because I understand both the connection of buleria to solea, AND I know how important it can be to put the right rhythmic FEELING into a score. I think for Buleria I would go with Guitarbuddah's way, 3/4 with the counts underneath as 8th notes. That is the right "feeling". But anyone that can truely and completely get solea from a score, should have no problem learning buleria the same way with just a faster quarter note.
Hope that helps a bit. No need to get offended that any one way is the right way.
To illustrate, here is a clip. At first we play a game...chase the wife's tempo! OK, I change chords like solea, 1,4,7,10. But are those the DOWN BEATS??? to me no, at that tempo, but you can see the relationship. I keep chasing her with that phrasing trying to do some of her off beats and stuff, until....:33. At that point you all can "feel" the change or shift of beat feeling. But the count and meter is still the same!!! So you can see the delema about notating, should we use a new meter right there? I don't have a problem with either method. And of course you dont NEED either to learn to make the shift of feel like I am doing here...just experience with dancers. (also notice how I use triplets to go into tangos and back into bulerias later).
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to greeny)
Nice vid, Ricardo! I've always loved solea escobillas. I get what your saying about the difference in transcriptions, but I don't think anyone could do the escobila, transition into bulerias, throw in a few compas of tangos, go back into buleria, by reading any kind of score. But then again, there's some amazing readers out there.
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
RE: Encounter-books and the Bulerias (in reply to Ailsa)
Ailsa, GREATEST movie ever, IMO. Coen brothers, in case nobody knows! And fantastic usage of the Gypsy Kings' "Hotel California" cover. Endless things to find in this movie but alas, not for everyone, don't know why. Oh, I live Lebowski once a day, at least...
Ricardo, thanks for clearing things and being a moderator. I almost figured as much about the reasons, but I knew you would explain it extensively and far better. I wish I could sub for you on some of these things so you don't have to repeat yourself, but you're still super expert.
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