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RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to cathulu)
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If as I understand it for premium materials the cost is $800 then to me a very good guitar should cost ~$1600 - $1800.
Now if you have a lot of people waiting to buy your artisan guitar, then supply vs. demand comes into it and you can charge what the market will bear.
I think quality oriented builders who can only make one guitar/month have to factor the cost of supporting a family, retirement, and their living and business expenses into the price. A standard price is created when all the best builders do this. Supply and demand is still a big factor; it's just not the only one.
The more you know the better your chances will be of getting a great deal on a great guitar. Otherwise, if you're looking for a good deal as an uninformed consumer you're likely to get ripped off.
I paid $600 for a used guitar in good shape that now sells for $1,400 new. When I sell it I'll probably break even and might even make money. Learn everything that you can about authenticating a guitar's value; it's your best bet...
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to n85ae)
Well after you have been shopping for a while, you will come to realize that in Flamenco guitars
The Entry level to good guitars is $2000+ The lower priced Luthier models $3-5000 The well know Luthier Primera models $6000+
Don't yell at me, I don't set the prices, I just know what the market looks like.
When you consider what they do for the money, they don't even make much money. I would bet the average professional does better salary wise than a lot of good luthiers.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
IMHO the best I think anyone can hope to get is a $3,500 "lower priced Luthier model" for about $1,200--and that's if the both parties know the value of the instrument.
Somebody on the foro bought a luthier built guitar by accident for about $100--nice, but I wouldn't expect this.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
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I did a search on eBay this evening, there are 9 used Cordoba flamencas and only 1 used Yamaha. Maybe that's supposed to suggest something?
Does it ever. Somebody posted last year about taking a mirror and looking inside a Cordoba guitar. They were shocked at the poor quality of workmanship.
The warning about buying a mid-priced guitar has been made many times before on the foro. They really aren't worth the additional money.
quote:
No matter what, always try before you buy.
If you are sure you can either make money or at least get your money back including shipping I think it could be worth trying without buying. I did and it worked out. Even if you lose money but satisfy your curiosity it might still be worth it.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
A "starter" guitar is just a BS marketing idea for people that are not serious about music or instrument collecting. If you are serious about playing, don't buy any guitar you can't first try out.
If you dont' know how to play, bring a teacher or guitar playing friend to try the instrument. IF you have none of those, hang out in the shop and wait for a guy/gal that actual can play, and ask them their opinion. NEVER TRUST THE PERSON SELLING THE INSTRUMENT! Not necessarily because they might be trying to unload a lemon, but because opinions and taste can be so different, so just to be sure you have to be careful about it. Price tags don't mean a whole lot when it comes to playability and sound.
A more expensive guitar tends to be easier to play anyway, so why the need for a "starter" guitar, that has a mediocre sound and set up? Wondering all the time why the rasgueados sound like mud and the scales too hard to pick cleanly?
A good expensive guitar with a high resale value and important name, can be unloaded easily if one decides he doesn't want to play serious. On the other hand, a guitar that seems on the surface, cheap junk, can get "beat in" in a way it ends up sounding great over time. So i say go out and see what guitars are out there and don't worry about price. When you find a nice guitar, THEN decide what you need to do to acquire it.
Don't listen to hype, good or bad. I own Cordoba, it is good. Many students had em, they were all good. I had friends with the Yamaha. I never liked any off them honestly. ToddK's was the best, and very different feel than the others I tried.The Cheap crappy 400 dollar Cordoba my friend bought sounded bad at first, but now it sounds great. Herman Hauser sounds good too. Ramirez, I never liked. Sobrinos de Esteso/Conde Hermanos....always the best for flamenco IMO, based on my tastes of sound and way to play. R. Sanchis and sons Hermanos Sanchis lopez, very good too, not as good but very close. But no matter what, you need to try it out first to be sure. To me, if the Hauser is better than the Cordoba, and those are my two options, well, then I got to get the Hauser...somehow. So keep your options open and try out as many as you can.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
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If the luthiers were even willing to respond to the questions people have about less expensive guitars I would not have even bothered to post here.
Ok ok... But sometimes we have to work, you know.
Its been some years now, but I actually worked in a shop selling Spanish guitars here in Spain. In general, and I say in general, its very difficlt to find something decent not to say good, below 500,- euros here in Spain.
Eveything below is something rushed together and with a very uneven output.
You can find very cheap guitars which sound ok, but normally they have one sound.. nothing else, you play them soft and hard etc and hardly any change. They work well for banging out rumba slaps and not much more. The higher you go, the more different sounds you get, the more the guitar reacts to your playing and the more it teaches you what you do right and wrong.
Flamencoguitars begin to be flamencoguitars in my ears and hands around the -800 - 1000,- euros range (new price). Well known guitars like Bernal and Sancís are typical examples of what I talk about. They are small factory guitars, so the output is so so, but they have a flamenco touch. Read again, I said touch and not sound because I find it to be more important on cheap guitars. The way the beast reacts under you fingers. I have seen an OK guitar recently for 600,-€ but thats it.
If a classical guitar can be adjusted with a low action and a relatively low stringheight over the soundboard, it can be used as beginners flamenco guitars and my advice is to save up some money and buy a decent instrument when you buy. It´ll be cheaper in the end and you´ll be learning more.
I´m sorry, but I dont have to much time to follow the thread, because I´m working in the workshop and also restoring my house. I decided NOT to talk about, woods, etc, because IMHO its not what counts in a cheap guitar. If it works, it works. Later you can adjust a guitar to your wishes and playing style using different makers and diffrent woods pulsation etc.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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A guy was selling a guitar recently that Anders made because he couldn’t get used to the pegs.
I suspect Anders does an excellent job of fitting pegs. The fact that a customer couldn't get used to them means nothing, some people have trouble tying their shoe laces. I've seen and repaired far more problems with machines than with pegs. Usually all that's required to repair a sticking or slipping peg is a little cleaning or some graphite.
quote:
I’m aware of what they said about this. You can say what you like, but I think most people know there are differences…and why bother to offer separate classical and flamenco models on your own site?
Of course there are differences. I was responding to your blanket statement. Some flamenco players prefer the sound of a good classic with low action. We're currently building two guitars that are more or less blends of classic and flamenco. One is a classic with low action for a jazz player the other is a flamenco with higher action and a deeper body for a classical player who plans to use it in an acoustic band for strumming.
quote:
Will you even answer my question about FP/lacquer in this post?
Would you take a luthier’s word on a $2,000+ purchase—probably someone you’ve never met—without doing any research? I wouldn’t.
You already stated you preferred french polish so what do you care about my opinion; but since you ask...some people prefer french polish over lacquer and some don't.
As to a luthier's word. I'm in full agreement with Ricardo. Go and play as many guitars as you can. When you find the one you like buy it.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to stevnp)
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ORIGINAL: stevnp
As the guy in question I take offence at:
"The fact that a customer couldn't get used to them means nothing, some people have trouble tying their shoe laces."
My reason for not getting used to pegs has nothing to do with my ability to tie shoelaces, (I wear slip-ons!)
Sorry, no offence intended. All of my personal guitars have always been built with pegs. I prefer them. I've even had to convert a couple of my own guitars to machines before selling them just to alleviate customer's fears of the peg tuning. There's nothing wrong with someone preferring machines but it's a myth that pegs are universally hard to tune.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to n85ae)
I was joking John, no offence taken!
My problem with pegs is that the guitar has to be held with the right hand whilst turning them, meaning my normal method of tuning, using harmonics, doesn't work as the r.h. damps the strings, which I find very irritating-nothing to do with Anders' craftmanship.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to jshelton5040)
@jshelton5040
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I was responding to your blanket statement.
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so what do you care about my opinion
Man, you really do tend to see things in terms of absolutes—everything is either black or white. Your all or nothing approach makes it difficult if not impossible to communicate with you. If I didn’t care about--or even respect--your opinion I wouldn’t ask in the first place. Also, the question I asked had to do with guitars with French polish on the soundboards and lacquer on all the other components versus guitars done entirely with French polish. It could be a nice option and seemed worth investigating.
quote:
My problem with pegs is that the guitar has to be held with the right hand whilst turning them, meaning my normal method of tuning, using harmonics, doesn't work as the r.h. damps the strings,
If this sort of tuning procedure is necessary to tune a guitar with pegs than I would find pegs more difficult to use than mechanical tuners. Can two notes—a reference note and the note to be tuned—sound at the same time when tuning with pegs? Is it even possible to change from one tuning to another during a performance? Someone on the foro claimed it wasn’t a few months ago.
quote:
I suspect Anders does an excellent job of fitting pegs.
I have seen and heard a number of Anders guitars. They’re top notch.
There’s info on them including prices and a great sound clip of a blanca. They look great and the price is competitive for a luthier built instrument.
@Ricardo
quote:
If you are serious about playing, don't buy any guitar you can't first try out.
Great advice and my preference, too--but it’s not always practical for me. I don’t live near la tienda flamenca—there’s only Guitar Center for flamenco guitars. I called a local place, Acoustic Corner, and they didn’t have anything for flamenco—the owner didn’t even offer a reference for a store that has flamenco related items. I’m not all that fond of “buying before trying” but on rare occasions it does seem like it could work out—esp. if you can break even on re-sale.
There’s info on them including prices and a great sound clip of a blanca. They look great and the price is competitive for a luthier built instrument.
I can attest to John's guitars (as well as Susan's). In fact I owned a Shelton and did the clip on Tom's site a few years ago. When I owned it, I had a couple of guitars on order and reluctantly sold it. At the time it hadn't really opened up yet. A few months ago I heard it and it didn't sound like the same guitar. It had improved dramatically.
John and Susan's guitars are very well priced and have a great old-world raspy tone to them. The clip on Tom's site is pretty representative.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to Guest)
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It's not too encouraging to think an entry level guitar is in the $2000+ range
i think its a waste of time going for the mid range market because all you have to do is wait and save maybe another $1500 and you can find something a lot better. I can see the temptation though because i bought a mid range amalio burguet at one stage and yes it sounded better than what i had but all i had to do is be patient and save that bit more and i could have bought a much better guitar. If the yamaha is playable and sounds decent then that sounds like a good option, then work towards saving up for a luthier guitar. In the long run you will save money buying a luthier guitar because you will keep it and you wont be buying and selling instruments as you grow out of them.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
quote:
Man, you really do tend to see things in terms of absolutes—everything is either black or white. Your all or nothing approach makes it difficult if not impossible to communicate with you. If I didn’t care about--or even respect--your opinion I wouldn’t ask in the first place. Also, the question I asked had to do with guitars with French polish on the soundboards and lacquer on all the other components versus guitars done entirely with French polish. It could be a nice option and seemed worth investigating.
I've spent 40 years batting my head against a wall trying to build the best guitar in the world. Perhaps you can cut me a little slack for being impatient with blanket statements about something I've worked so hard to learn. I don't use french polish because it is physically impossible for me to use it. Some people's sweat doesn't get along with FP; therefore I don't have an answer for your question. I understand Aaron Green uses french polish with lacquer on the back and sides, perhaps he can answer your question.
My writing style puts some people off but I assure you I am not an absolutist and am well aware that I don't have all the answers. In fact I believe for a lot of the questions about guitar making there are no answers. Everyone is grasping at straws and some people come up with work-arounds but nobody really understands all of it.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
Perhaps you can cut me a little slack...
OK, fair enough--I'm doing my best to understand what goes into a good guitar. I could use a little slack, too, especially considering how involved and vague the whole world of the acoustic/flamenco guitar tends to be.
quote:
I've spent 40 years batting my head against a wall trying to build the best guitar in the world.
From what I've seen and heard on La Falseta it's really paid off!
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
See, now I know why luthier built guitars are so darn expensive...
The luthier goes into the woods, spend a few days looking for a tree, and then a few more dragging pieces of it out. It is all very romantic and earthy, but can't a labourer be hired at $10/hour for a lot of that while the luthier does the more important job of building guitars?
Or how about the luthier spends 100 hours french polishing the guitar. What?
Does a luthier built guitar only have the hands of that luthier on it? If yes, what is wrong if they sub some of this work to cheap labour and concentrate on the important stuff to lower the price of the guitars and the waiting list. I guess the question is "are luthiers making musical instruments or are they making artwork that can play a note"?
It is like a nite-club where patrons are forced to line-up outside while inside it is half empty. Just my opinion... I hope it doesn't look like I am trolling, I think it is a legitimate question... but way off topic.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to cathulu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: cathulu
See, now I know why luthier built guitars are so darn expensive...
The luthier goes into the woods, spend a few days looking for a tree, and then a few more dragging pieces of it out. It is all very romantic and earthy, but can't a labourer be hired at $10/hour for a lot of that while the luthier does the more important job of building guitars?
Or how about the luthier spends 100 hours french polishing the guitar. What?
Does a luthier built guitar only have the hands of that luthier on it? If yes, what is wrong if they sub some of this work to cheap labour and concentrate on the important stuff to lower the price of the guitars and the waiting list. I guess the question is "are luthiers making musical instruments or are they making artwork that can play a note"?
It is like a nite-club where patrons are forced to line-up outside while inside it is half empty. Just my opinion... I hope it doesn't look like I am trolling, I think it is a legitimate question... but way off topic.
Pretty much that is what produced the entire "factory guitar" thing. Ramirez had a large number of guys building his guitars, but each guy was like an apprentice. So he could make guitars still high quality, but much higher numbers. Vs the true factory where it is an assembly line. The idea is you get all the quality control with only ONE guy working with your guitar from start to finish. So yeah, there is some "romance" and "art" involved, and that is main thing about the "wait". The price is another thing, but along the same lines.
RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to n85ae)
Further, I think a company with the resources that for example Yamaha has, if they made a corporate decision to do it, I would bet money they could make guitars that would easily compete against Conde, or any other guitar maker.
Of course that would require them to make the decision in the first place to do it. However with the money they have, and the facilities they have they certainly could do it.
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And congrats too, Jeff! (The missus is happy?) 
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