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RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 versus $750: Am I getting that much more?
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
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A "starter" guitar is just a BS marketing idea for people that are not serious about music or instrument collecting. If you are serious about playing, don't buy any guitar you can't first try out.
If you dont' know how to play, bring a teacher or guitar playing friend to try the instrument. IF you have none of those, hang out in the shop and wait for a guy/gal that actual can play, and ask them their opinion. NEVER TRUST THE PERSON SELLING THE INSTRUMENT! Not necessarily because they might be trying to unload a lemon, but because opinions and taste can be so different, so just to be sure you have to be careful about it. Price tags don't mean a whole lot when it comes to playability and sound.
A more expensive guitar tends to be easier to play anyway, so why the need for a "starter" guitar, that has a mediocre sound and set up? Wondering all the time why the rasgueados sound like mud and the scales too hard to pick cleanly?
A good expensive guitar with a high resale value and important name, can be unloaded easily if one decides he doesn't want to play serious. On the other hand, a guitar that seems on the surface, cheap junk, can get "beat in" in a way it ends up sounding great over time. So i say go out and see what guitars are out there and don't worry about price. When you find a nice guitar, THEN decide what you need to do to acquire it.
Don't listen to hype, good or bad. I own Cordoba, it is good. Many students had em, they were all good. I had friends with the Yamaha. I never liked any off them honestly. ToddK's was the best, and very different feel than the others I tried.The Cheap crappy 400 dollar Cordoba my friend bought sounded bad at first, but now it sounds great. Herman Hauser sounds good too. Ramirez, I never liked. Sobrinos de Esteso/Conde Hermanos....always the best for flamenco IMO, based on my tastes of sound and way to play. R. Sanchis and sons Hermanos Sanchis lopez, very good too, not as good but very close. But no matter what, you need to try it out first to be sure. To me, if the Hauser is better than the Cordoba, and those are my two options, well, then I got to get the Hauser...somehow. So keep your options open and try out as many as you can.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 28 2008 18:25:10
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
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quote:
If the luthiers were even willing to respond to the questions people have about less expensive guitars I would not have even bothered to post here.
Ok ok... But sometimes we have to work, you know. 
Its been some years now, but I actually worked in a shop selling Spanish guitars here in Spain.
In general, and I say in general, its very difficlt to find something decent not to say good, below 500,- euros here in Spain.
Eveything below is something rushed together and with a very uneven output.
You can find very cheap guitars which sound ok, but normally they have one sound.. nothing else, you play them soft and hard etc and hardly any change. They work well for banging out rumba slaps and not much more. The higher you go, the more different sounds you get, the more the guitar reacts to your playing and the more it teaches you what you do right and wrong.
Flamencoguitars begin to be flamencoguitars in my ears and hands around the -800 - 1000,- euros range (new price). Well known guitars like Bernal and Sancís are typical examples of what I talk about. They are small factory guitars, so the output is so so, but they have a flamenco touch. Read again, I said touch and not sound because I find it to be more important on cheap guitars. The way the beast reacts under you fingers. I have seen an OK guitar recently for 600,-€ but thats it.
If a classical guitar can be adjusted with a low action and a relatively low stringheight over the soundboard, it can be used as beginners flamenco guitars and my advice is to save up some money and buy a decent instrument when you buy. It´ll be cheaper in the end and you´ll be learning more.
I´m sorry, but I dont have to much time to follow the thread, because I´m working in the workshop and also restoring my house. I decided NOT to talk about, woods, etc, because IMHO its not what counts in a cheap guitar. If it works, it works. Later you can adjust a guitar to your wishes and playing style using different makers and diffrent woods pulsation etc.
Nice playing.
Anders
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Feb. 28 2008 19:31:25
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Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to jshelton5040)
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@jshelton5040
quote:
I was responding to your blanket statement.
quote:
so what do you care about my opinion
Man, you really do tend to see things in terms of absolutes—everything is either black or white. Your all or nothing approach makes it difficult if not impossible to communicate with you. If I didn’t care about--or even respect--your opinion I wouldn’t ask in the first place. Also, the question I asked had to do with guitars with French polish on the soundboards and lacquer on all the other components versus guitars done entirely with French polish. It could be a nice option and seemed worth investigating.
quote:
My problem with pegs is that the guitar has to be held with the right hand whilst turning them, meaning my normal method of tuning, using harmonics, doesn't work as the r.h. damps the strings,
If this sort of tuning procedure is necessary to tune a guitar with pegs than I would find pegs more difficult to use than mechanical tuners. Can two notes—a reference note and the note to be tuned—sound at the same time when tuning with pegs? Is it even possible to change from one tuning to another during a performance? Someone on the foro claimed it wasn’t a few months ago.
quote:
I suspect Anders does an excellent job of fitting pegs.
I have seen and heard a number of Anders guitars. They’re top notch.
If anyone is interested in Shelton’s guitars use this link: http://www.lafalseta.com/Shelton_Farretta_flamencos.html
There’s info on them including prices and a great sound clip of a blanca. They look great and the price is competitive for a luthier built instrument.
@Ricardo
quote:
If you are serious about playing, don't buy any guitar you can't first try out.
Great advice and my preference, too--but it’s not always practical for me. I don’t live near la tienda flamenca—there’s only Guitar Center for flamenco guitars. I called a local place, Acoustic Corner, and they didn’t have anything for flamenco—the owner didn’t even offer a reference for a store that has flamenco related items. I’m not all that fond of “buying before trying” but on rare occasions it does seem like it could work out—esp. if you can break even on re-sale.
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Date Feb. 29 2008 7:38:24
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Guest
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 RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to cathulu)
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quote:
I have had a couple of Yamaha's, a RD-400 and a RZ-350!
i had an RD-250 with 350 barrels, i loved that bike it hammered.
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Date Feb. 29 2008 11:06:08
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Guest
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RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
It's not too encouraging to think an entry level guitar is in the $2000+ range
i think its a waste of time going for the mid range market because all you have to do is wait and save maybe another $1500 and you can find something a lot better. I can see the temptation though because i bought a mid range amalio burguet at one stage and yes it sounded better than what i had but all i had to do is be patient and save that bit more and i could have bought a much better guitar. If the yamaha is playable and sounds decent then that sounds like a good option, then work towards saving up for a luthier guitar. In the long run you will save money buying a luthier guitar because you will keep it and you wont be buying and selling instruments as you grow out of them.
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Date Feb. 29 2008 11:13:43
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Beginners flamencas at $350 vers... (in reply to cathulu)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cathulu
See, now I know why luthier built guitars are so darn expensive...
The luthier goes into the woods, spend a few days looking for a tree, and then a few more dragging pieces of it out. It is all very romantic and earthy, but can't a labourer be hired at $10/hour for a lot of that while the luthier does the more important job of building guitars?
Or how about the luthier spends 100 hours french polishing the guitar. What?
Does a luthier built guitar only have the hands of that luthier on it? If yes, what is wrong if they sub some of this work to cheap labour and concentrate on the important stuff to lower the price of the guitars and the waiting list. I guess the question is "are luthiers making musical instruments or are they making artwork that can play a note"?
It is like a nite-club where patrons are forced to line-up outside while inside it is half empty. Just my opinion... I hope it doesn't look like I am trolling, I think it is a legitimate question... but way off topic.
Pretty much that is what produced the entire "factory guitar" thing. Ramirez had a large number of guys building his guitars, but each guy was like an apprentice. So he could make guitars still high quality, but much higher numbers. Vs the true factory where it is an assembly line. The idea is you get all the quality control with only ONE guy working with your guitar from start to finish. So yeah, there is some "romance" and "art" involved, and that is main thing about the "wait". The price is another thing, but along the same lines.
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Date Mar. 1 2008 4:06:38
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And congrats too, Jeff! (The missus is happy?) 
