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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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 RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote]ORIGINAL: Ricardo
1)
the way Encuentro Faucher for exmaple do bulerias, is based on it's relation to Solea COUNTING that dancers might use, and not to true rudimentary rhythmic phrasing. Someone like Ailsa who studied percussion and can read good, trying to learn the rhythms from a BAD score,COULD BE internalizing the phrasing wrong right of the bat.
2)
BUT in the case of many good readers of scores (rare for guitarists honestly), they also have good enough ears to correct the flaws. For example, I have no problem adapting to Faucher's way of having the bar lines wrong, I can visualize the phrasing either way
3)
Who would not prefer to have nice video of Bach playing his organ, rather than a score????
[/quote]
Hi Ricardo lots of sense there as usual. There is an interaction between points one and two (as I have numbered them) if someone is a strong reader and they get confusing scores then this will retard the speed at which their ear develops. This will mean that the perspecive that they would need to fulfill the requirements of you second post might never be met. This happens a lot with classical guitarists (and I speak from experience) who start learning a piece and grind to a halt when the sense of the music is not conveyed by the score. I have two scores of Almoraima buleria. One is Japanese by Minoru Seto and the other by Claude Worms. I spent a year very confused by the Japanese one but ground away and listened and listened and eventually got it. The Worms one makes instant and immediate sense. I showed them to some orchestral friends
and the first one made their heads hurt, most of them could sight sing the Worms one straight off the bat. They hadn't needed to spend the years intense listening that I had. I now have so much that is well written that I really cant be bothered with the crazy editions. I do feel that I learned from translating those scores to common sense but on reflection it would have been much quicker if I had got straight to the ones that made most musical sense. I can adjust the stuff in my head to hear it as I read but when I start sight reading it my brain stalls.
On point three obviously I would want to see both of these people play but if I had to LEARN THE PIECE then I would rather spend time with the score. For ear training I prefer to run through tunes and songs in different keys,not well developed pieces flamenco or classical. I am a bit lazy I suppose but the audience only knows that you play well or badly and dont have the foggiest how you learned the piece.
It is good to see that this debate has been so polite. I am genuinely pleased that my comments have been taken in the spirit in which they are given.
D.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 14 2008 11:49:30
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Conrad)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Conrad
Hi, Ricardo. I'd really like to learn what you mean by this: quote:
I mean right down to what does a quarter note mean I take issue with so many transcriptions. I mean bulerias with quarter note equals 240+, that is off the scale IMO, those should be 8th notes to anyone that understands beat and groove. So many verbal arguements I have on the net about rhythm stem from folks not being aware of what bpm means when describing rhythm.
Can you elaborate? Because I know I'm guilty of doing this when I used to transcibe. I did this because I always found it easier to read a bulerias, for example, when the eighth notes represent halves of the basic beat adding up to twelve. Or maybe I just find it much easier to read because of the way the notes are less crowded and grouped in eighths. And are you saying it's only the range above 240 where you get upset? I mean yes, it's very fast, but I'd have to say that for me, it's nice if a palo or rhythm is all written in the same form to maintain consistency and avoid confusion.
Hey man! So what I mean is, most metronomes go up to 208 or so. So what about bulerias and other songs that are faster??? Well most folks know that you can half the metronome and play the same speed, but you are now only getting "half notes" as reference. I don't see the point of that. Better to simply understand that you are now dealing with 16th note subdivisions. IMO bulerias is dealing in 16th subdivisions, at a medium tempo, 100-130+ bpm for the quarter note, and the better versed one is at 16th subdivisions, the easier time they have with any synchopations that occur.
For me a comfy foot tap is the beat, and the beat should be numbered, so the subdivisions are in between the foot taps. Some folks do rumba, 1&2&3&4&, with the foot on 1 and 3. For me that should be half the speed, but the foot is the beat, 1 and 2, the subdivision is 1e&ah2e&ah, etc. So the quarter note basically ALWAYS has the beat. In the case of Fandango or bulerias felt in 3, the dotted quarter gets the beat. But basically my point is the quater not is the pulse and what you tap your foot to.
I do solea and bulerias more or less the same tempo, same meter, same subdivisions etc. It is just that the compas for Solea is TWICE as long, but it is really about the phrasing, hence your half compases and other anomolies. Especially escobilla for baile you feel this, but just in general. The counting confuses the "feeling" issue, but for sure needs to be learned when dealing with dancers.
Chicuelo feels Alegrias faster than Paco, if you watch his foot tapping. He feels the counts as the beat, so quater equals 170Bpm. Paco and others feel half the speed, generally, when you see the foot, so much slower beat with more subdivisions. I think a video reveals this and a score COULD reflect this,, but you see why it could confuse things further.
Since there are different ways even maestros want to feel things, you will never have a standard way to transcribe.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 14 2008 13:54:25
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to cathulu)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cathulu
So what to do for 12 beat bulerias "12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11"
tap your foot on 12 2 4 6 8 10 or 1 3 5 7 9 11 for a different vibe?
or 12 3 6 8 10 (like "I want to live in America" lyric from Westside Story)?
or 1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11
Do you mix all of them depending on the feel of the rhytym or falseta? Would you recommend one over any of the others if you can only learn one of them?
This has been covered in the archives. Look for "foot tapping" and things about compas.
"Warning, nerd mode again".
Basically I would think the most fundamental is 12,2,4, 6,8 10, but it is important to see the grouping more simply:
12,2,4
6,8,10.
Really that way you see the half compas more clearly, or rather, you learn to feel the down beats on 12 and 6. You may notice that count 10 or 4 are the ending beats. What about 3? Well, honestly when you close on 10 with a simple rasgeado say, you are actually starting it on 9, so you can see how 3 or 9 have the same feeling in the rhythm. So you CAN tap the foot this way too:
12,3
6,9
Again you can see the symmetry there. The combo of the two patterns results in the popular:
12,3
6,8,10
Problem is that too many students get "stuck" on that, and can never break out of that box, loosen up, and feel the SAFER, shorter length groove that is inherent to the rhythm, and then be free to shift between "half compases" when needed for dancers and singers, (or even just in a falseta), by feel without thinking or counting.
Lets forget about counting to 12 for a minute, or call those numbers "8th notes", then re number them by FOOT beats. Think about other dance styles where the dancer counts off "5,6,7,8" then starts dancing. Think about it, why 8??? When is there music written in 8/4???(rhetorical). Same logic applies to the dancers "siete, ocho, nueve, diez, un, do....". They count off too many numbers.
So my first bulerias above, where I had 12,2,4, that would be your foot just doing 3 taps: 1,2,3. So 6,8,10 would be 4,5,6. So 6/4=a full compas. But notice I made two separate lines. So lets just forget the redundant "4,5,6". The basic count is "1,2,3" and again, "1,2,3"....or not. To only have the top line would be an odd meaure, or a "half compas" as they call it. But that is OK as we hopefully know by now.
So for me bulerias is simply, "1,2,3" with 16th note subdivision between, mixed up and accented however you do it. There are many ways. That is why Guitarbudda's upload long ago of Bach's lute suite in E major, works fine in bulerias.
The other legit feel was 12,3,6,9. That is just, 1,2,1,2, for me, but the dotted quarter note gets the beat this time. They call that 6/8 meter usually. Again not 12/8 because you can have the half compases. So some transcribers mix both meters, 3/4 alternates with 6/8. Fine, but again, the FEEL should be reflected in a transcription depending on the composers intent or foot tap. And there need not be a hard rule about the alternations. It can be a long passage, all 6/8, or vice versa. Again video is great to figure that out. Remember, most flamenco maestros are not thinking about 12's at all, but a basic 3/4 meter on paper conveys a rhythmic feeling to the reader.
Sorry this is long winded, but last thing. PDL's and others, 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11. Again I find it reduntant to count all the way to 12 so lets limit it to 1,2,4,5, understand 6  is the downbeat. OK, so what is the deal? Well that goes with the palmas. Or rather, a soloist can provide percussion accompaniment with his foot. If you encounter some palmas a little dragging or rushing, because of the spaces left, or what you accent, AND you like some contra tiempo, then that foot tap helps you lock in better with your palmero good or bad. The little pause gives your leg muscle a break rather than having to tap every 8th note that fast. So this type of tapping is akin to the jazz guys GB mentioned that tap 2 and 4 like a snare drum, on up tempo swing tunes. It is a way to make percussion and lock in better with a group that puts their up beats in a special place. (Jazz swing, in the pocket, or soniquete, etc).
But the feel of that tapping does not have to change the meter in any special way. Think like you play whatever it is, but your foot goes either "(1)&2(&)3&" for 3/4 time feel, or it is going "(1)&ah,(2) &ah" for the 6/8 feel, AGAINST what you play. Notice where in the 3/4 feel the numbers land. So your foot actually has to feel that too: tap TAP, TAP tap....tap TAP, TAP tap... hope you understand the emphasis there. The palmas should be feeling that too. But the 6/8 feel does not have that, and that is an important distinction to make, but very subtle just listening on the surface.
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Date Feb. 14 2008 18:07:51
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980
Hey
I actually tried to apply the Westside story to the Bulerias, because you have 6/8, 3/4 compund meter. Is that feaseble, doesn't it cause the accents in the wrong places?
There are two things. How to count the two meters, and what keeps steady when the meter changes. I learned from computer software years ago that when you change meter, you can't have a dotted quater have the beat,then a quarter AT THE SAME TEMPO back to back. What needs to be in the score or told to the computer, is that when the meter changes, you must indicated 8th note=8thnote, EVERYTIME! Again shows why the transcribers of flamenco did not understand much about rhythm notation. Much safer to stick with 3/4 only, and feel the "6/8" as synchopation.
But assuming you do the 8th=8th thing for each measure, the way I count 6/8 is:
123,456 or 1&ah,2&ah, so you have 2 groups of 3 8th notes. To match the compas count, that would be the feeling of counts 12,1,2, 3,4,5. 12 and 3 get the emphasis in groups of 3. OK?
So the 3/4 meter, again 8ths of the previous is the same speed of the 8ths coming up, you count 1&2&3&. Or, 3 groups of 2. So that lays over the other half of the compas:6 7 8 9 10 11. The emphasis again on the 6,8,10. So that is how you could overlay the changing 6/8-3/4 meter to the flamenco compas of bulerias....and other forms that use 12 count obviously.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 16 2008 3:59:54
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Advice on Choice of Bulerias (in reply to Bogdan1980)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980
Ok, so here is where I got confused: Why is there a dotted quarter?
For 6/8-3/4 I cound 123,456, 1 2 3, see how the latter 1 2 3 I spaced more between
each other, that's because there more pause between each beat. At least that's how I
perceive that.
Now here is a part from bulerias that has exactly 6/8 amd 3/4 part. There is no dotted
quarter. And I also tried to look at it just as 3/4 all the way through. As I listed to
bulerias I can count through all of them just with 123, 123, 123. Is that possible?
Why dotted quarter? Because you had to space out your 1 2 3, so you are not
counting the subdivisions. Better if you wrote it 123,456, then 12,34,56. A dotted
quarter equals 3 8th notes, and there are two dotted quarters in a measure of 6/8, or
TWO BEATS. Notice how the 16th notes are beamed together differently in the 6/8
measure vs the 3/4 measure. The breaks between beams is showing clearly the
intended pulse or beat feeling. So a dotted quarter gets the beat for a group of 6 16ths
in the top line, a normal quarter note gets the beat in the 3/4 measure in the second
line that you posted. Make sense?
Just want to point out the double bar lines used make no sense since the music keeps
going, double bar lines should inticate a new section of music. And also your excerpt is
not truely alternating since you have 6/8, 6/8,3/4,6/8. And once more I point out that
the score does not indicate that the 8th not stays steady, not the intended beat as
shown by the beaming.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 16 2008 8:11:03
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). 
But it seems the least biased method for me to avoid tapping my foot even though I can do it... if only because if I want to play an unrehearsed strumming rhythm or something improvised I'm less drawn towards those taps as accents and can be more creative. I think I am just a bad physical multi-tasker. I would be a dreadful drummer. My hands just want to sychronize like a guitarists, so to speak. 
