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Condé s overpriced?
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to Doog)
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quote:
I have owned a couple of Condes [an A-26 and an Esteso "Re-edicion"]
What years? I know this just comes down to taste, but for me, even though I have played many other good guitars, when I come back to the Condes it was like "what was I thinking???". I mean they have the right feel and sound for me. I have only played one Conde A26 that was really "bad" imo, and it was from 2003 and very different than the ones I own or have played that I love. I am seriously wondering if the year has anything to do with it. Sort of the opposite of you I have not played any Ramirez that I every liked...perhaps I only encountered Cedar tops and that is what I don't like? Not sure, again it is just taste. Some guys I know hate their Conde's and when I try em, expecting a dud, I am surprised by how I like them. And of course some folks hate my guitars, and their favorite guitar, Devoe, Gerundino, Reyes, whatever, I am not impressed by at all.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 22 2008 5:59:04
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Doog
Posts: 59
Joined: Sep. 17 2007
From: Tennessee
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I have owned a couple of Condes [an A-26 and an Esteso "Re-edicion"]
What years? I know this just comes down to taste, but for me, even though I have played many other good guitars, when I come back to the Condes it was like "what was I thinking???". I mean they have the right feel and sound for me. I have only played one Conde A26 that was really "bad" imo, and it was from 2003 and very different than the ones I own or have played that I love. I am seriously wondering if the year has anything to do with it. Sort of the opposite of you I have not played any Ramirez that I every liked...perhaps I only encountered Cedar tops and that is what I don't like? Not sure, again it is just taste. Some guys I know hate their Conde's and when I try em, expecting a dud, I am surprised by how I like them. And of course some folks hate my guitars, and their favorite guitar, Devoe, Gerundino, Reyes, whatever, I am not impressed by at all.
Ricardo
Hi Ricardo,
My A 26 was a 2005 and the Esteso was a 2006.
I think that we are in perfect agreement. Our likes and dislikes regarding guitars are very subjective - a matter of personal choice and preference. Our preferences seem to be quite different - that is totally fine. Wouldn't it be terrible if we all liked the same things?
It is like flamenco itself in terms of the guitar. I have a very strong preference for traditional flamenco - the modern flamenco and fusion leave me cold. I respect the players talents and abilities, which far exceed mine, but the sound of modern and fusion flamenco does nothing for me.
I applaud your enjoyment of the Conde guitars!
Regards,
Doog
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Date Jan. 22 2008 10:33:40
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ricecrackerphoto
Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to edguerin)
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i had the pleasure of finally visiting luthier music in nyc this past december. the owner (forgot his name) was kind enough to let me play everything in his back rooms as long as i didn't do any golpes. there were several A25s, A26s, negras, blancas, hernanos sanchis', aparicios, and some ramirez's.
my friend, a classical player, gravitated toward all the conde negras i was playing, while i thought most of them sounded sweet and thick. there was one A25 blanca that was mean and nasty and dry that i loved. of course my friend hated how brash it sounded. so yeah it is all subjective but i can finally say i've played a conde.
and he had in the room furthest back, a 65 ramirez that sounded like dark thick junk.
that was such a great experience. i've only heard positive things about the owner of luthier music and apparently they're true.
doug
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Date Jan. 22 2008 10:59:11
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Doog
Posts: 59
Joined: Sep. 17 2007
From: Tennessee
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I have owned a couple of Condes [an A-26 and an Esteso "Re-edicion"]
What years? I know this just comes down to taste, but for me, even though I have played many other good guitars, when I come back to the Condes it was like "what was I thinking???". I mean they have the right feel and sound for me. I have only played one Conde A26 that was really "bad" imo, and it was from 2003 and very different than the ones I own or have played that I love. I am seriously wondering if the year has anything to do with it. Sort of the opposite of you I have not played any Ramirez that I every liked...perhaps I only encountered Cedar tops and that is what I don't like? Not sure, again it is just taste. Some guys I know hate their Conde's and when I try em, expecting a dud, I am surprised by how I like them. And of course some folks hate my guitars, and their favorite guitar, Devoe, Gerundino, Reyes, whatever, I am not impressed by at all.
Ricardo
Hi Ricardo,
I think that we are in perfect agreement: guitar preference is very subjective, a matter of what sounds good and feels right [comfort in holding the guitar and playability] to the given individual.
My '69 Ramirez is a cedar top blanca - I like its deep, woody, mellow voice. A sound that apparently does not appeal to you. That is fine; we each have our own choices and preferences.
My A 26 was a 2005 and the Esteso was a 2006. I really, really tried to like the Esteso, but it just did not happen.
My two DeVoes [blanca and negra] fit me like a glove, have excellent playability and excellent musical and lyrical voices.
It seems that you and I may be at opposite ends of the spectrum as regards to guitar voices. I am very comfortable if that is indeed true. I would not presume to try to judge your taste or change you preference. If Condes are your 'best guitars', then more power to you. May you live long and happily and truly enjoy playing your favorite guitars.
Warm Regards,
Doog
P.S.: This was my original response to you, Ricardo. I thought that I lost it so I started over. Having found it buried behind some other windows when I went to shut down, I thought that I might as well go ahead and post it.
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Date Jan. 22 2008 11:30:27
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to Doog)
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quote:
My A 26 was a 2005 and the Esteso was a 2006. I really, really tried to like the Esteso, but it just did not happen.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried a real Sobrinos de Esteso from say, the 50's through the 70's? I know it is different hands, but the design is very close to the modern conde compairing to say Ramirez, Gerundino, etc. And of course how about Conde's (Felipe V address) from the time 1989-2003, the time the label changed?
The Conde guitars I have tried from the 90's to about 2002 were all pretty good IMO, and stand up to even the old Sobrinos I have played. The problem I found with the guitar from 2003 that had a different sound and feel, was that it had almost no bass tone, and no charactistic "punch". I admit a strong point for a blanca is to have a good mid range, and this guitar had mids. But it seemed at the expensive of bass tones. My student who bought the guitar left it with me for a while to "break it in" or so he hoped. After spending serious time with it, I realized it was not the same instrument at all to what I was used to, sound OR feel, and would never have the right "punch" because of it's orginal design flaw. He felt the same and sold it, after trying to get used to it, and luckily found a good used one from the 90's.
Would you say there was a similar defect in sound from the instruments you tried from 2005,6???
Sorry if this is getting dragged out, I am just curious...
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 23 2008 3:07:53
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Doog
Posts: 59
Joined: Sep. 17 2007
From: Tennessee
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried a real Sobrinos de Esteso from say, the 50's through the 70's? I know it is different hands, but the design is very close to the modern conde compairing to say Ramirez, Gerundino, etc. And of course how about Conde's (Felipe V address) from the time 1989-2003, the time the label changed?
The Conde guitars I have tried from the 90's to about 2002 were all pretty good IMO, and stand up to even the old Sobrinos I have played. The problem I found with the guitar from 2003 that had a different sound and feel, was that it had almost no bass tone, and no charactistic "punch". I admit a strong point for a blanca is to have a good mid range, and this guitar had mids. But it seemed at the expensive of bass tones. My student who bought the guitar left it with me for a while to "break it in" or so he hoped. After spending serious time with it, I realized it was not the same instrument at all to what I was used to, sound OR feel, and would never have the right "punch" because of it's orginal design flaw. He felt the same and sold it, after trying to get used to it, and luckily found a good used one from the 90's.
Would you say there was a similar defect in sound from the instruments you tried from 2005,6???
Sorry if this is getting dragged out, I am just curious...
Ricardo
Hi Ricardo,
"Sorry if this is getting dragged out, I am just curious..."
No problem, I am happy to share opinions with you.
"Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried a real Sobrinos de Esteso from say, the 50's through the 70's? "
No I have not had the opportunity to do that. I have not played any Felipe Vs either.
"Would you say there was a similar defect in sound from the instruments you tried from 2005,6???"
The '05 A26 had a voice very much like what Doug [not Doog] described in one of his above posts ... "there was one A25 blanca that was mean and nasty and dry that i loved." I do not consider this to be a defect, but rather a typical sound that the Conde has. I would also add that, to me there is also a "metallic" quality to the Conde voice.
I wish that I could give you a precise evaluation of the Esteso "Re-edicion" in terms of its sound. It had excellent playability and at first blush I kind of liked the sound, but that wore thin quickly. As you can tell from my comments in previous posts, I like guitars that have a more melodic, mellow. melliferous voice. The Esteso did not have those qualities and its volume was not particularly outstanding.
To further clarify my tastes I have a classic guitar made by John Weissenrieder, an American form Colorado who lives and builds in Florence, Italy. His "Simplicio" model has a magnificent voice the appeals to me endlessly. Its voice has been described by myself and others as being: sweet, lyrical, musical, melodic, haunting, mellow, and romantic.
Also, I "grew up" in flamenco, in a manner of speaking, listening to Sabicas playing his legendary cedar top Ramirez blanca. I trust that this has influenced my tastes significantly. Mario Escudero was another strong influence. I feel that his playing had a significant classical guitar influence. Incidentally, I studied with Mario's father, Jesus, for over a year back in the early '60s. He was a true gypsy who spoke only Gypsy [Romany?], French, and Spanish. He was decidedly traditional and totally competent playing solo and accompaniment for toque and baile.
Once again, I believe that I understand our differences in tastes and feel totally comfortable with it.
Doog
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Date Jan. 23 2008 11:35:14
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tk
Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to Doog)
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quote:
I have not played any Felipe Vs either.
I thought you mentioned that you had an A26/ they are made at Felipe V shop no?
Also, you mention that there was a "A25 Blanca"...I thought that was the model represented with indian rosewood only?
Doog, I am curious, which number of the Esteso reedition did you have? I had the #28. Like you said, initially, I liked it but when I played it next to my Devoe and the Reyeses, I thought that wasn't worth keeping it. So, I sold it. I also had an AF25R, and sold it too for the same reasons that ricardo was mentioning. It was lacking bass and the trebles were weak. Instead, I bought another Devoe since it suits my taste more ie thicker trebles, better tone, much more lyrical than Condes. But, we have to admit, both of my Condes were easy to play. It's funny how my collection started with Condes and now I don't have any Conde.
Over the years, i have realised that my taste has changed significantly. and even now, in this same thread, you have different opinion on the same guitar. I think that's what is fun about it!
TK
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Date Jan. 23 2008 16:38:41
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Doog
Posts: 59
Joined: Sep. 17 2007
From: Tennessee
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to tk)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tk
quote:
I have not played any Felipe Vs either.
I thought you mentioned that you had an A26/ they are made at Felipe V shop no?
Also, you mention that there was a "A25 Blanca"...I thought that was the model represented with indian rosewood only?
Doog, I am curious, which number of the Esteso reedition did you have? I had the #28. Like you said, initially, I liked it but when I played it next to my Devoe and the Reyeses, I thought that wasn't worth keeping it. So, I sold it. I also had an AF25R, and sold it too for the same reasons that ricardo was mentioning. It was lacking bass and the trebles were weak. Instead, I bought another Devoe since it suits my taste more ie thicker trebles, better tone, much more lyrical than Condes. But, we have to admit, both of my Condes were easy to play. It's funny how my collection started with Condes and now I don't have any Conde.
Over the years, i have realised that my taste has changed significantly. and even now, in this same thread, you have different opinion on the same guitar. I think that's what is fun about it!
TK
Greetings tk,
You are correct about the A26 being made at the Filipe V shop. I forgot. I stand corrected. Thanks.
You are right again - the A25 is a negra, but if I made reference to it, I did so in error. I have never seen or played one. I suspect that someone else made that reference ... possibly Doug [AKA - ricecrackerphoto]
My Esteso was #25. I cannot tell you how hard I tried to keep that guitar - I pondered the problem for months before I finally sent it off.
Don't you just love the DeVoes. I bought a negra in January 2007 and then got a blanca in December of 2007. Their playability is so easy and smooth and I just love their voices ... so lyrical! I have had other DeVoes [blanca and negra] in the past, but the guitars he is turning out of late are the best that he has ever made.
Oh yes, the Condes had very good playability just like you mentioned. That's all.
I suppose that you feel about the same regarding your Reyes[es] as I do regarding my '69 Ramirez.
Yes, like you, my tastes have changed as I have worked my way through a bunch of guitars over time.
Regards,
Doog
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Date Jan. 23 2008 20:18:50
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Padre
Posts: 22
Joined: Mar. 2 2007
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RE: Condé s overpriced? (in reply to edguerin)
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I just bought a new Conde A26 (Felipe V shop) blanca a week ago for $6,900 at Luthiermusic.com. He had more. Disregard published list prices they mean nothing.
I own two other Condes, a 1962 1A blanca just sent to GSI for sale (for financial reasons) and a 2001 negra Braz Felipe V shop (for sale, see classifieds at Foro).
All three of these Condes are spectacular, and somewhat different. One thing they have in common, notes are clear, sharp, crystalline like and well separated, and trebles are very strong. I had a fabulous 2004 DeVoe blanca but dumped it for the '62 Conde. When taken outdoors, the Conde proved to have better projection and clearer sound. DeVoe was great indoors but note notes thick and blurry, signal to noise not as good making it loud but not clear.
The guys at Felipe V shop are one of the few luthiers that actually make a proper flamenco bridge, low mass and well designed - critical to the trebles!!! They have found a formula that works and is distinctively Conde. It is not warm and fuzzy, it is in your face, brash, cutting, balsy, but very flamenco. There is a reason the Spaniards love their Condes.
I am seeing prices for other luthier made instruments now hitting the $6-10k range, just look at a new Juan Miguel Gonzales, Zavaletas just offered a blanca for $9,400 - ouch. What I just paid for my new Conde is no different than a new DeVoe in price so it comes down to preference.
One important point on price and value - resale on a Conde is VERY strong, that is much more than I can say for many other makes (in my experience).
Larry
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Date Feb. 7 2008 7:19:47
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