Help with picado (Grisha?)

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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

Help with picado (Grisha?)

Hey everyone,

I'm learning the Farruca in Am by Sabicas, the only part that looks like it could hold me back is the picado towards the end. I'm at about 150bpm now with a long way to go by the way it sounds on the recording

I don't have problems with short spurts, but with the long runs like that one, especially since on that one I have finger i hitting 2nd string followed by finger m hitting the 3rd string on the way down.

Any tips/exercizes for longer runs or fingers crossing over that could help me out?

By the way I have it all figured out from the recording if anyone has a question about any part.

Thanks,
John

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 4:18:06

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

Hi John. I have had good success with paradiddle type figures. Here is on imii mimm, notes bbbe bbbe for first two beats and then bbbg bbbg for next two.

I play one note per beat for four bars, then two and then four each for four bars then straight back to one.

This excercise pushes reflexes (the repeated note) accuracy ( the string skipping ) and just about everything else. Also the imposition of playing at slow medium and fast tempos in one excercise is very good for improving the blood supply to the specific muscles that over a period of time will improve the stamina of specific muscle groups ( think of how an 800m runner trains ). Try and observe any changes in technique/muscle tone/facial contortion that occur at the change of pace these are the truly important points in which to pay full attention.

I start with the metronome at around sixty and try and play the whole 12 bars with intensity. If I get through it confidently without missing a beat I then turn the metronome up straight away, any flaws then back to the start. Believe it or not you can get to about 140 bpm. This should give you a boost for working on the Sabicas passage in your normal ways.

Another great thing is to split the semiquavers into triplet plus quaver and then quaver plus triplet. This will help you with phrasing and pacing and to isolate the notes on the beat (which should anchor your awareness at speed). Try and play whole passages with this altered rhythm with as much musical intensity as you can and this should push your technique fast but indirectly, will also do wonders for your articulation. Try and get the triplets to around 240 and then when you go back to playing the semis straight you will probably find a lot more 'space' and options for pacing even at high speeds with metronomic precision.

Wishing you speedy progress.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 5:31:02

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Thanks a lot man! I'll let you know in a coupld of weeks how I'm coming along

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 5:37:09

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

Glad to offer some tips John, but I think that you will have something to report in a few days if I know you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 5:39:39

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

quote:

on that one I have finger i hitting 2nd string followed by finger m hitting the 3rd string on the way down.

Any tips/exercizes for longer runs or fingers crossing over that could help me out?

(Since Tony Arnold doesn't seem to be around to say it...

)

Have you tried not crossing, i.e., using the i finger on the 3rd string too? I think Sabicas did this, certainly other players did/do.

David, I look forward to trying your exercise too. Thanks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 6:04:42

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to Estevan)

I was told years ago that dragging is always bad (even if great guitarists have done/do it) since it brings you out of the movement pattern - since then have gotten to the point where my hand will simply not allow it. I'd hate to ruin that...

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 6:33:10

flamencoguru

Posts: 271
Joined: Jun. 30 2004
From: West Palm Beach, Florida USA

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

Hey John,

Are you learning Punta y Tacón (Farruca) by Sabicas? If you are, I have a recording of me doing it. About the fast picado runs...... I have no idea of how fast I'm doing them but what I do is always start with my middle finger when I do the two fast runs at the end. I don't repeat, either. Keep alternating.

I can send you the video if you give me your e-mail address.

Un saludo, Errol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 7:24:47

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 8:14:50

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to flamencoguru)

Wonderful, thanks! It's john.opheim@gmx.de

Yeah, I do them the same way. My fingers get confused on the final run down to the A, which is usually easiest for me. Possibly I heard the notes slightly different than they were meant to be played, looking forward to seeing it, thanks again!

Later,
John

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2008 10:08:27

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Here is on imii mimm, notes bbbe bbbe for first two beats and then bbbg bbbg for next two.

you play imii? and then mimm? is this right? repeat the same finger?

and when you turn the metronome up, how much each time? 1 bpm? (that would drive me bonkers, and take forever to get from 60 to 140 bpm!), 5 bpm? 10 bpm?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2008 4:53:42

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to mark indigo)

I didn't claim it was easy mark. I find it slightly less frustrating than spending several years repeating the same mistakes.

I do however realise that for a guitarist this is a novel attitude.

Maybe I should play it real sloppy at sixty and then eighty and then stop using the metronome playing it as fast as I can and making loads of mistakes ?

NAHH ! one BPM of genuine progress sounds much more attractive, call me weird.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2008 5:28:42

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Sorry Mark. A civil answer now. Yes to everything you said.

I got these ideas from watching drumming instructional videos and put them in practice and got great results. Now I am sharing them. The payoff isn't just in speed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2008 5:31:38

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

Im surprised Grisha hasnt checked in on this.

I would like to hear you play the run John.
I think its almost more important how it sounds.
If there isnt enough staccato, it will never really sound right,
even up to tempo.

Regarding speed, and aside from purely physical advice,
since my technique doesnt apply to you.
I can tell you something that might be helpful mentally.

I used to tend to group notes in 4 and 3's, IE= in my head as i play
a long run, i was accenting every 4 notes (or 3 depending)
I believe it was Grisha who spoke about grouping in 7's for speed
burst practice.
Shortly thereafter, i began half'ing the metronome so im playing 32'nds,
and now thinking in 8 note groups. I switch back and forth between
16'ths and 32nds.
i dont know the physiological voodoo of why this helps, but it definately does.
You may already be doing this sort of thing, i dont know, i just figured
i'd throw it out there.

I love that Farruca!! Someday i will upload it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2008 6:14:25

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to ToddK)

Hey Todd, happy new year.

Not remotely related to Sabicas (sorry John), but on the subject of flatpicking ( something which I rarely do ) any paradiddle kind of work can be done with a pick really effectively. On a single string uduu dudd is good. One which I have been using a lot for thumbwork might also be interesting with a pick.

The basic pattern is six notes uduudd ( or imiimm). I dont use that however I displace it slightly imimmi or duduud. I noticed that this pattern happens a lot in Bach's lateral harmony for solo violin. It seem nice for flamenco preparation as it is nicely syncopated (rudamental drummers can sound really square).

I have noticed, and fully agree with, the stuff that you said too, when you drop accents lines just seem to flow better at high speed. That is the main challenge of buleria, the density of accents has to remain high.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2008 6:53:47

johnguitars

Posts: 72
Joined: Jul. 27 2007
From: Michigan,USA

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to flamencoguru)

Can you send me a copy also? johnguitar@aol.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2008 8:58:05

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

I would like to hear you play the run John.
I think its almost more important how it sounds.
If there isnt enough staccato, it will never really sound right,
even up to tempo.

Regarding speed, and aside from purely physical advice,
since my technique doesnt apply to you.
I can tell you something that might be helpful mentally.

I used to tend to group notes in 4 and 3's, IE= in my head as i play
a long run, i was accenting every 4 notes (or 3 depending)
I believe it was Grisha who spoke about grouping in 7's for speed
burst practice.
Shortly thereafter, i began half'ing the metronome so im playing 32'nds,
and now thinking in 8 note groups. I switch back and forth between
16'ths and 32nds.
i dont know the physiological voodoo of why this helps, but it definately does.
You may already be doing this sort of thing, i dont know, i just figured
i'd throw it out there.
I love that Farruca!! Someday i will upload it.

Thanks for the advice Todd

I'll try the different settings on the metronome like you said, up to now I've only been thinking in 4's.

Yeah, even if I could get that picado up to the same speed as Sabicas it would probably be the only thing I could play since I'll have been doing nothing else for weeks and like you said even then it could not sound right. Sabicas doesn't play it clean on the recording, but it still has that staccato sound you're talking about so it doesn't bother at all.

I've never actively listened to my picado to be honest, I've always kept away from it if necessary because I always associate it with pain

Time to get going on it, I guess...

I'll upload it tonight, let me know what you think!

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2008 18:55:00

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to flamencoguru)

This sounds really good Errol. Only difference I found to my version was in the second part of that long picado. I have two notes more, keeping it in quarters:

e-string: 0- -0-1-3-1-.....
B-string: 0-1-0-1-2-3-2-3-4- -4-
G-string: 2-1-2-

That last "-2-3-". Besides that it's all exactly the same. Also I see here it doesn't have to be the quickest speed humanly possibly to sound good.

Thanks again,
John

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 1:03:08

flamencoguru

Posts: 271
Joined: Jun. 30 2004
From: West Palm Beach, Florida USA

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

Hey John,

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I hope it helped you out. Yeah, I was told by a former classical teacher that if you play a scale clean, it'll sound twice as fast. I'd like to believe that this is somewhat true.

I didn't know that I was playing two notes less. I have the transcription that Joseph Trotter did of Flamenco Puro. I've found it to be quite accurate. Are you using the Transcription from Juan de la Mata or Faucher? Did you pick it up by ear?

Un saludo, Errol

P.S. I'm looking forward to hearing your version.

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http://www.myspace.com/flamencoguru
http://www.youtube.com/flamencoguru

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 3:07:33

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I didn't claim it was easy mark. I find it slightly less frustrating than spending several years repeating the same mistakes.

I do however realise that for a guitarist this is a novel attitude.

Maybe I should play it real sloppy at sixty and then eighty and then stop using the metronome playing it as fast as I can and making loads of mistakes ?

NAHH ! one BPM of genuine progress sounds much more attractive, call me weird.

well, hey, thanks for the brief "sorry" and the "civil answer" in the second post, but based on the first one quoted above i wouldn't call you weird, just rude.

how about not bothering with the puffed up egotistical prima donna reply post in the first place?

i was only asking how exactly you practised your exercise, and humorously self-deprecating my own patience.... if you can repeat an exercise from 60 to 140 bpm 1bpm at a time, you have more patience than me, and i am suitably impressed, i've spent years practising scales, exercises and falseta's etc., with metronomes, putting them up 5 or 10 at a time on digital ones, 1 or 2 notches on mechanical ones, and slowing down again immediately the playing starts to go out of time or sloppy or not keep up with the beat....

i have practised a similar exercise without the finger repetition, bbe bbe bbg bbg played imi mim imi mim, so was curious about the similarity and difference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 5:12:12

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to mark indigo)

Mark, David, you're both right, with all due respect I'm loving this post right now - please don't turn it negative.

Errol, probably yours is right - I got mine out by ear from the recording and that last part I put in so it would fit to 4/4, I can then practise it accompanying dance class.

Here's my attempt

This is the speed at which I have full control. I'm trying to train those bottom knuckles to do most the work but my fingers like turning slightly sideways so they use more the corner of the nail and the upper knuckles, making me lose control...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 5:58:04

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Mark, David, you're both right, with all due respect I'm loving this post right now - please don't turn it negative.

both right? i wasn't disputing anything, i was asking about the exercise, which i'm now gonna try out, having checked out that i had understood it correctly...

and yr playing is really good, you probly don't need the exercise!

mark

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 9:47:44

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to mark indigo)

Mark I honestly thought you were trying the take the piss in your first post. Hadn't talked to you before and thought you were actually trying to ridicule my suggestion.

Turns out I was wrong. Maybe I am a little bit pompous but I am definatley too touchy. It took a little bit of time to describe the excercises and I genuinely hoped that someone reading would find some value in them. I thought your reply might put them off but in reality I had totally misread your intent.

I have been taking my own advice about taking semis apart and playing whole pieces triplet plus crotchet or crothet plus triplet and and loving the results both technically and musicaly. Let me know if anyonelse gives it a try and if they notice anything.
D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 10:29:20

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

and yr playing is really good, you probly don't need the exercise!

Thanks

, you should listen to Sabicas play it and you'll know what I'm talking about though

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 10:50:52

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Help with picado (Grisha?) (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Errol, probably yours is right - I got mine out by ear from the recording and that last part I put in so it would fit to 4/4, I can then practise it accompanying dance class.

Correction Errol! Yours has the 2 elsewhere on the first string 'cause you include the F# both ways - so does Sabicas. Thanks!

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2008 10:59:52