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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play...
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
quote: Not all soleá de Alcalá is related to Joaquín de la Paula, nor is all soleá de Jerez related to Frijones. T Exactly, isn't that why it would be good to learn both regional and personal names. Just as an example, Juan Talega, in the RITO series says that Mairena made up the Alcala moniker. That his uncle (Joaquin de la Paula) was responsible for many of the cantes. I'd have to watch that particular episode again but I am sure he doesn't give any credit to the regional and seemed quite frustrated with Mairena's adoption of regional vs. personal. Hi Romerito....what better way to spend pre-Christmas than talking about cante . Flamenco investigation has come a looooooong way since Rito and Mairena. Mairena's writing is mostly discredited nowadays, and Rito, while being an invaluable document, simply does not reflect recent findings, beliefs or discoveries. In general, singers (such as the wonderful Talega) cannot be trusted on factual or historical information beyond their own immediate families: "My dad used to sing that, so it's my dad's" is about the extent of their sources. That kind of testimony is also important, but must be taken in perspective. There are many many blatant errors in Rito, and another helping in Mundo y Formas. Precisely regarding soleá de Alcalá, last year investigator Manuel Martín published the book “Alcalá de la Soleá: un museo abierto”, 615 pages about Alcalá cante, and while Joaquín de la Paula figures prominently, there’s much much more. That’s where you begin if you want to know about cante de Alcalá. Joaquín de la Paula was Talega’s uncle as you say, so Talega wasn’t about to relinquish his family’s claim to these important cantes. Spanish flamenco artists are fiercely localist chauvinist.
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Estela Zatania www.deflamenco.com www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 24 2007 4:52:23
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Pimientito)
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quote:
Sevillanas is a regional dance, the gypsies adapted it to their repertoire ??? Can you give examples of what you consider the "gypsy version"? I've been to countless fiestas in a range of Andalusian provinces, *including Sevilla*, and not heard or seen sevillanas at any of them. Sevillanas are what you see at ferias. Night falls at a Spanish feria, the last of the sevillanas people go home by 2 or 3, and then the flamencos take over the casetas. It's a whole different social group, even though anyone might dance sevillanas at a given moment...just like they might dance the Macarena, or the twist if you put on Chubby Checker. Saura's movie contains a lot of fantasy. For example Lola Flores inventing her own sevillanas choreography, struggling to make it look as flamenco as possible. I guess Saura asked her to do that, but sevillanas is still danced in the conventional way.
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Estela Zatania www.deflamenco.com www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 24 2007 5:04:43
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Ricardo
Posts: 14880
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to zata)
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quote:
I haven't come across any flamenco in Spain who calls sevillanas "flamenco"...the very sound of that sentence is comical. In Rito, El Pali seems to think of his "sevillanas" as "cante flamenco" or at least part of it. Not saying I AGREE with him, and obviously that was why the interviewers asked him what he felt other flamencos thought of his "cante", but my point is... HE IS SPANISH! [: quote:
Actually, no. "Fandangos personales", as the name suggests, refers to the fact that Yes you are right, but I correct that one in a later post with "naturales". It had slipped my mind at the time I typed that. quote:
The chronology is skewed. Regarding pre 1900's stuff not recorded, what is the proof of chronology? Or rather, if Verdiales came BEFORE Fandangos from the Huelva region, why do they call it "fangangos" at all, and where did the first "fandangos" orginate, and how could anyone prove that???? quote:
There are many many blatant errors in Rito, and another helping in Mundo y Formas. Precisely regarding soleá de Alcalá, last year investigator Manuel Martín published the book Hey wait a minute, was that Manuel Martin martin, the SAME guy Morente just wrote that letter to, and all those top flamencos sighned, saying he was an idiot??? And we should believe HIS book over the Rito VIDEO and MAIRENA????
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Date Dec. 24 2007 7:11:22
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
"" There are many many blatant errors in Rito, and another helping in Mundo y Formas. Precisely regarding soleá de Alcalá, last year investigator Manuel Martín published the book "" Hey wait a minute, was that Manuel Martin martin, the SAME guy Morente just wrote that letter to, and all those top flamencos sighned, saying he was an idiot??? And we should believe HIS book over the Rito VIDEO and MAIRENA???? If you read the original Spanish letter, no one called Manuel Martín an "idiot". Morente and co-signers were protesting what they consider overly critical comments...which for most of us translates into, Manuel Martin had the balls to say what he truly believed, regardless of whether or not you agree with him. Artists protesting negative reviews is not a new phenomenon. Mairena's writings are generally discredited in this country, and Rito is a valuable historical document...with the accent on *historical*. Both items are four decades old.
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Estela Zatania www.deflamenco.com www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 27 2007 1:28:28
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Guest
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RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to zata)
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Hola Estela is right. Martin Martin is not a purist, he is a highly regarded critic and expert. He has said publicly that la hija de Morente does not know how to sing flamenco. This is akin to saying that the emperor has no clothes: everybody knows it but nobody has the cojones to say it. And everybody knows what Morante is, especially if they have had the "good" fortune to work with him. This is a guitar forum. If there are half a dozen people here who understand cante sufficiently to understand what Martin Martin is saying, it would surprise me. Seán
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Date Dec. 27 2007 1:43:42
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Guest
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RE: What about a Sevilliana? (in reply to Ailsa)
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Sorry Ailsa,but dance is treated on this forum with the same ignorance as cante. Here is a review of a performance of Estrella (NOT by Martin Martin) Con un repertorio similar al de sus actuaciones de los últimos dos años, Estrella Morente se presentó el pasado viernes en el Auditorio del Museo Picasso Málaga. Es evidente que Estrella ha creado su público, un público no entendido en flamenco, aunque no contrario al mismo. Y es que el verdaderamente entendido no acude a escucharla, pues ya sabe que no va a encontrar la profundidad mínima exigible a un cantaor, según el concepto canónico. Podríamos decir que el espectáculo constó de dos partes bien diferenciadas: una primera flamenca, en la que Estrella volvió a destacar por esa forma ‘acancionada’ de interpretar los palos, excediéndose en adornos vacíos que alargan y desvirtúan los cantes, entregándose más a la forma que a la pasión y hondura que pide el flamenco. Esta parte constó de alegrías, tangos, soleá y tarantas y, como muestra de lo que decíamos del público, éste estuvo frío, callado, quizá nos atrevemos a decir que estaba soportando esa parte que Estrella se empeña en incluir en su programa, esperando anhelantes el momento en que la granadina cambiase el registro. Una deslumbrante Estrella interpretó soberbiamente el tango argentino ‘Nostalgia’ e, inmediatamente, se metió a los espectadores en el bolsillo, marcando un antes y un después en el espectáculo. Cuando canta estas canciones es capaz de conseguir lo que no consigue cantando flamenco: emocionar. Su afinación, que deja qué desear cuando se afana en alargar los melismas de un palo, es perfecta en este terreno y su dramatización, muchas veces afectada y grotesca en lo que al flamenco se refiere, es aquí un elemento más en el que poder demostrar su valía como artista. Y en este punto es cuando el público encuentra lo que ha venido a ver. Después, su grupo cantó muy bien y muy ortodoxamente por bulerías, abonando el terreno para la interpretación del tema de su último disco ‘Si yo encontrara una estrella’ que terminó de inspirarla para, a mi entender, abordar lo mejor de la noche: unos cuplés por bulerías donde se despojó de tanta parafernalia vocal y tanto adorno superfluo y, llena de duende, dedicó a su marido una interpretación de la copla ‘Madrina’ que estremeció al auditorio y lo puso en pie. Tras una larga ovación, con entrega de ramo de flores incluida, se despidió con ‘Volver’, plena, radiante, dejando contentos a los más exigentes y a sus incondicionales, totalmente seducidos e hipnotizados. Lourdes Gálvez del Postigo Diario Málaga Hoy 02/12/07
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Date Dec. 27 2007 1:57:28
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Guest
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RE: Cante recommendations please? (in reply to Ailsa)
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Hola Ailsa A great deal of what is sung nowadays is based on the cante of Tomás Pavón. This is very important. There are so many others, especially if you prefer to regionalise, but Antonio Mairena has recorded an encyclopedia of cante. Suerte Seán
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Date Dec. 27 2007 3:17:00
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