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compas
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Ricardo
Posts: 14862
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)
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IMO and experience teaching and playing with others, those who "can't play without the metronome" on, or get lost or speed up and down, whatever, usually are not really playing TO the metronome correctly to begin with. I hear people often chasing the accents, getting lost and picking back up, etc, FOLLOWING the metronome. That is not right. The idea is to make the metronome FOLLOW YOU. Actually I got the from TODDK at somepoint in the past, I mean he said that and that is right on. But you CAN cheat a little. Learn how to tap your foot when you play to the metronome. I don't care if you tap accents, every other beat, every 3 etc, whatever, but train your foot to keep time or give a reference. It really helps when you have synchopation, if you lock in to that beat your BODY is giving you physically. Singers that sing good for dancers ALL can do palmas and sing at the same time. You have to train yourself that way so it becomes natural. I don't know any players that play REAL tight, and CAN'T tap their foot. So using the foot is a "cheat" but, it will help you when playing with no palmas, percussion, or metronome. When you get to the point that you trust your foot as much as a metronome, you can even do away with practicing with it. But it is good from time to time to "check" yourself. Check your self by recording your playing along to a click, and be as critical as you would be with anyone. Be more critical actually if you can. By critical, here is a hard truth. When you play with a metronome clicking, there are only two things happening. You are either ON the click or OFF the click. When playing off notes, contras or whatever the rhythm is that is not ON the click, you will hear it just fine AGAINST the click. When you are playing note ON the beat, you should not be able to hear the click at all. Try just playing notes ON the click repeatedly, until it disappears all together. Then you are playing correct and on beat. Ricardo
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Date Nov. 29 2007 22:22:10
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hassurbanipal
Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium
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RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)
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hey guys, thanks for the good information. I think a lot can be said about this topic. I played this weekend with a 70-year old men who always played flamenco the traditional way. it's strange because he doesn't care about amazing syncopation or falseta's out of this world. he only has one thing and that is compas. So when I played with him, he said: you have good technique and you can play in compas most of the time but not all the time. Stop playing those falseta's and return to the basique of flamenco and what it really is, rythm, rythm and again rythm. no correr!! don't run, first learn how to walk. and it's the best advice allthough it was hard for me to take this critisiscm, he was right. I play right with the metronome, really ricardo I do...:)) but without it I'm lost in difficult falseta's not with the basic strumming. I accompagny dance so I know what's compas and how to play with it but not with really hard falseta's. and the other thing that is difficult is tempo...it's difficult not to speed up. but I'm learning and will try to do it as John said , put accents on different beats, I'm sure it will help. And I'm already trying to do my foot while playing on the metronome so I can feel more what I'm doing. All the best and thanks guys viva el arte and the long posts
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Date Nov. 30 2007 8:25:25
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: compas (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo IMO and experience teaching and playing with others, those who "can't play without the metronome" on, or get lost or speed up and down, whatever, usually are not really playing TO the metronome correctly to begin with. I hear people often chasing the accents, getting lost and picking back up, etc, FOLLOWING the metronome. That is not right. The idea is to make the metronome FOLLOW YOU. Actually I got the from TODDK at somepoint in the past, I mean he said that and that is right on. But you CAN cheat a little. Learn how to tap your foot when you play to the metronome. I don't care if you tap accents, every other beat, every 3 etc, whatever, but train your foot to keep time or give a reference. It really helps when you have synchopation, if you lock in to that beat your BODY is giving you physically. Singers that sing good for dancers ALL can do palmas and sing at the same time. You have to train yourself that way so it becomes natural. I don't know any players that play REAL tight, and CAN'T tap their foot. So using the foot is a "cheat" but, it will help you when playing with no palmas, percussion, or metronome. When you get to the point that you trust your foot as much as a metronome, you can even do away with practicing with it. But it is good from time to time to "check" yourself. Check your self by recording your playing along to a click, and be as critical as you would be with anyone. Be more critical actually if you can. By critical, here is a hard truth. When you play with a metronome clicking, there are only two things happening. You are either ON the click or OFF the click. When playing off notes, contras or whatever the rhythm is that is not ON the click, you will hear it just fine AGAINST the click. When you are playing note ON the beat, you should not be able to hear the click at all. Try just playing notes ON the click repeatedly, until it disappears all together. Then you are playing correct and on beat. Ricardo Hi Ricardo, that's all great advice. One thing more I might add (and this will by no means be the approptiate next step for many people) once all of the things that you suggest have been done (for years) the asymetrical tapping that Paco does (two out of three beats) is really good too. D.
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Date Nov. 30 2007 10:37:57
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Ricardo
Posts: 14862
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)
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quote:
I play right with the metronome, really ricardo I do...:)) but without it I'm lost in difficult falseta's not with the basic strumming. I accompagny dance so I know what's compas and how to play with it but not with really hard falseta's. and the other thing that is difficult is tempo...it's difficult not to speed up. Yeah, they guy was saying "walk don't run", but maybe refering to YOU rushing the tempo. Again, you may think you are "right" with the metronome, but perhaps you are playing falsetas (not strumming since I take your word it is "perfect") too much ON TOP of the beat. You need to keep things in the middle. In some cases you need to feel like you are "dragging" things to stay right smack on. Escpecially is if your tendancy IS to rush. Take A LOT of care with SPACES in the music. That is where people speed up, and when the foot really helps. Also, you need to relax when performing. Anyone can start speeding up if they are nervous and have "doubts". So many folks take up the cajon that were never really "percussionists" with pro ensembles. Inevitable that they start rushing when they should not, even guys that understand what practicing with a metronome means. It takes patience and care, but every note and space needs to be felt in the right spot, to keep from speeding up or slowing down. (Speeding up is the most common problem). Ricardo PS, there are times tempo moves deliberately in Flamenco accomp., but we are not talking about those moment HERE, and the fact that that happens is not an excuse to NOT practice with a metronome IMO.
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Date Nov. 30 2007 14:42:13
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: compas (in reply to hassurbanipal)
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Hi everyone, I enjoyed reading your posts because this is a subject that I find very interesting. Here are a few thoughts of my own, and I'd enjoy reading more of your ideas: When you're warmed up and playing well, you get a kind of overview that makes is easy to play over groups of beats, maybe not too different from speaking in sentences rather than word by word. Keeping those groups of beats tightly in line is like using the tone of your voice to heighten the impact of your spoken message. The are plenty of similarities between playing and speaking: letters-words-sentences = ...you get the idea. Taking things a little further -or maybe just askew-, I think there are three main elements involved in one's perception of playing: (1) The idea itself insofar as keeping track of what notes come next, in order to play the idea right. (2) The feeling of your hands on the instrument, in order to minimize effort and play the idea efficiently. (3) A precise and coherent "rhythmic architecture" or succession of beats, in order to play the idea with soul. It's the "pulse" that ToddK mentioned. This third element is obviously the most abstract and, in my opinion, is easily the most neglected of the three. I don't know much about it, because it's a big mystery, now isn't it? But, when you're able to clearly perceive and project a precise succession of beats, it's a lot easier to keep the other two elements under control. It's obviously very important to play the right notes and to play them cleanly, but I think players rarely harness the full potential of any given idea because they're not as focused as they could be on rhythmic precision. They're often focused on playing something "right" rather than appreciating how the falseta falls into the rhythmic context, and how their fingers fall into the falseta. Of course, that goes for my playing, too! Don't think that I just want to criticize others! Gee, maybe the only reason that I've got this idea in my head is because I need to work more on my rhythm. Hmmm Anyway, counting while playing, or perceiving that overview of groups of beats, is not easy when you have to deal with distractions like fatigue or an unclear memory of a falseta. So let's see some more ideas on this subject, please!
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Date Dec. 3 2007 22:19:56
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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RE: compas (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
counting while playing, or perceiving that overview of groups of beats, is not easy when you have to deal with distractions like fatigue or an unclear memory of a falseta Oh yeah, the things that can happen to me when I space out. Fatigue is the worst, especially if you're worrying about not being fit on op of it. Before doing any accompanyment I actually do the exercise I described above to make sure my head's on straight. For me it's about regularly playing all palos, if only 5-10 minutes a day. I don't know how it is for Spaniards who grow up with flamenco - if they spend a year doing no seguirias/serranas and can still just pick up a guitar and accompany it well with no problems. Probably after decades. I need to warm my head up, in any case. At the moment I still have a 9 hour office job and am accompanying serranas, soleá por bulerías, peteneras, polo, fandangos, farruca, alegrías, garrotín, guajíras, rondenas, tientos. Some for classes, some for shows, some for both in slightly different versions. I found for things like this it's better to do a little of everything everyday. Even if you think it's not enough, it really is and helps a lot. Kind of got off the beaten track there...
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Date Dec. 4 2007 9:08:20
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