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On "Guitar Diarrhorea"
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 RE: On "Guitar Diarrhorea" (in reply to Conrad)
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i have to aggree with you Ron on guitar diorea. its all too common to see someone play with awsome technical ability but with crap musical ability. but this is nothing new, it is a common pitfall for many guitarists. or maybe musicality just isnt something that comes easily, we all have our stumbling blocks.
technique can be learnt and improved as can compas, but how do you tell or teach someone to be musical or tell them how to feel the nuances of some passage, without it sounding contrived when they attempt to play it? this aspect isnt as tangable as say technique or compas. this is where it really starts to get complex, it has to be genuine and come from the heart so to some point it comes down to attitude. am i playing for my own ego or am i playing for the listener?
i think Conrad summed it up well in the last thred, 'technical diarea and musical constipation'. (im not referring to the jeronimo links btw, i like these vids a lot, im just talking in general terms)
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Date Sep. 22 2007 10:12:00
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: On "Guitar Diarrhorea" (in reply to Guest)
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Personally I feel that the whole "musical vs technical" arguement is BS. It is a nice way to complement someone that you don't like their playing, but don't really know why, by saying they have technique but leave YOU cold. I could play something right now, some will say, oh just techniques, some others will be moved, but only I can say what I was actually feeling while playing it. Perhaps I was only concentrated on making a part connect, or stay in rhythm or something, others are moved. On the other hand, a guitarist may be pooring his heart out to a bored listener. Not everything is for everybody. I usually don't like to go on and on about guitarist I don't care for, but Jeronimo never did anything for me, either live vid or on CD, or accomp. Sorry, but just my taste, I prefer his father Felipe.
Doesn't mean I don't respect what he is doing. A lot of his avant guarde modern stuff, not like this clip of him as a younger guy, is over my head, or at least I can't get into it. I guess I could try to figure out what he is doing, and realize he IS a genius, but I dont' have time now. It does not inspire me to go that way, but every once in a while I will put his disc back on and see how I take it with new ears. Same goes for MANY players. But just because I am not moved does not mean there is something wrong there, and same with other players that don't move YOU. In some cases there IS something technically wrong with what a player is doing, which is ironic for players that often get called "too technical", but I see that happen quite often.
Ricardo
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Date Sep. 22 2007 19:19:05
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: On "Guitar Diarrhorea" (in reply to cneberg)
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For me, it's rarely purely about being technically awestruck by these modern guys, just for the record...
Okay, definitely, the current Jeronimo might be perceived as less musical or whatever... but I really believe the melodies are there if you listen. They are not as sensational and elegant or classically beautiful, but the motives and phrasing are there. "Musical" can mean many different things for different people, obviously... I mean, bulerias, I'm sure everyone can agree, is conducive to a great variety of mood. Furthermore, for some, music is a reflection of life and you wish your music had a progressive "development" or that it has a tangible story arch, but even with that ideal in mind, I think life can be quite unreasonable and even nonsensical at times, and going even further, some people want to transcend or discard these musical conventions completely. For me, a lot of good flamenco aspires to do this or does it by default because as some people feel, flamenco has more to do with spirit and spontaneity and not tucking away a little composition that is cut and dried. And I'm not saying Jeronimo is doing this or what he's doing, but for the purposes of discussion, I want to express this, perhaps in rebuttal to Luka's post. And Luka, I am sympathetic to your views, absolutely, but I want to offer an alternative, too.
In the latter two Jeronimo vids, I see a guy who is not anguished and/or macho, but a guy who is trying to provoke and have fun, someone who provides a real challenge to the listener, and someone who is genuinely searching in the moment. I even hear some tenderness in his playing at times (in the third video, at 3:40, and the falseta after that at 4:15)
Sure, some of the trademarks of diarrhea (or whatever) in Ron's revelatory post are there (the unfortunate power chords, large intervals - which I actually like here - etc...) but for me he just does it in a more genuine way than Eduardo, for example. And for me, comparing those two, Eduardo is too symmetrical in his falsetas, starting a lot of compas' with pronounced downbeats and similar rhythms etc... but to each his own.
I also kind of relate to Jeronimo because he is just weird sometimes, or avant garde, whatever term you use. He wants to fuuck with you a little bit! And I slurp up that contratiempo stuff, personally. Granted, Jeronimo's composition, if you want to call it that, can sound very disjointed, but that's not always the point, as someone said earlier, suggesting how all these falsetas might sound individually in support of cante.
I also don't like to knock any guitarists or speculate on what they are thinking, but I'm bored and I want to share my personal reflections here.
F.Y.I. I never listen to Jeronimo's record cause it's out of tune/not recorded in my favourite fashion. And he's not even in my top list of guitarists, but he really does aim for a unique sound and I admire that. I think he could be much better, and he is sure trying to innovate.
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Date Sep. 22 2007 21:02:43
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Conrad
Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
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RE: On "Guitar Diarrhorea" (in reply to Ricardo)
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Oh, I remember seeing that, ya... blasted playback!! Oh, well... I stand by my defenses. Even if it was worked out, at least it was performed at one time, and it's not the album cut, so who knows...
And speaking to Ron and Deniz' contentions... I do always regret criticizing guitarists, however indirectly and subtly, but it's so fun to learn how people hear flamenco and what they like and don't like. Trouble is that an internet forum is a highly disappointing and inappropriate medium for these discussions. Too bad for me since all I can bring to the table around here is raving about my favourite guitarists. 
Arash, I liked your post, and I agree with all of it! Haha
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Date Sep. 23 2007 17:54:22
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: On "Guitar Diarrhorea" (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
Hi Ron, do you really want an answer ?
Well, here goes. I have found that there is a level of technique with which you can keep a lot of material at a high level of accuracy without putting too much strain on your memory. However playing 'musically' (in the style appropriate to the material you are presenting) takes a lot lot more preparation you CANNOT rely on finger memory for if you do then you are only one step above a machine. You need to play the piece with strong musical 'conviction' you cannot simply coast on your competence as an instrumentalist but you must have a musical goal in mind, kind of like telling a story, getting all the words right with terrific diction and projection but no sense of meaning sounds like a bad tv newsreader -were not all John Hurt..
With avante garde stuff ( assuming it is of any intrinsic worth ) then this preparation is more difficult as the way the pieces fit together is not gonna be as easy as the way in which the cliched or traditional elements that you have grown up with do. You need to know the piece much much better to play it convincingly and not just in the fingers you have to know and feel what every note and every silence MEANS and also to be able to feel it differently in the moment and have the flexibility technically and musically to achieve new meaning as you play.
Jeronimo does.
PS compositionally this example sounds extremely well balanced to me, no idea is thrown away undeveloped instead they comeback in a different guise, are extended or given an answer. This thematic unity keeps our attention far better than failing to give is time to 'digest' the ideas by moving to another too soon and not making reference to the previous ideas.
Yours verbosely (as always  )
D.
Awesome - well put. I've heard a guitarist once put it like this: we practice to create space. To quote, "we scrub those neural pathways by moving our fingers. And that creates space." Creating space gives you room to do more, to scrub out more neural pathways and create more space. I start off with a simple falseta, then I get comfortable with that, create space, and can add some frills, some complications. But then, where do you end? Well, at some point, once you feel as if you can play a piece with sufficient complexity and technical mastery, I think it's best to use the space to add feeling and musicality, instead of more bells and whistles. "When we no longer have to work at getting to the next note or musical sound, we can enjoy playing the current note with complete conviction." Space works either way, and great music should take advantage of both (well, generally )
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Date Sep. 23 2007 18:31:26
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Too much Amigo and Nunez, I guess. 
Why didnt i know him earlier aarrghhh