a-i-p rasgueado

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a-i-p rasgueado

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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

a-i-p rasgueado

I just wanted to know if anyone could tell me the benefit of this way of strumming. I saw it often at the Sanlucár course and am slowly getting it down, don't see any big difference yet compared to the old method except maybe a bit more control in the hand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 13:07:18

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

Yeah I had the same issue with it. To me it's the same triplet, just much more difficult to pull off. My m finger always gets in the way. I think the effect is better when one uses ipp.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 13:22:16

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

John, Great pics from the course.
The advantage is that it's lighter and good for cante.
It also has a unique sound with the pinky being the weaker finger the sound from the roll is uneven (I don't mean the timing just the sound). There is also the way it comesout nicely from the normal hand position without having to alter things.
It's a good one to practice and feel comfortable with.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 13:46:09

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Ah, that makes more sense. I notice it is a lot easier not having to change hand position. Takes a while to get used to not hitting the strings with the thumb both ways though...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 13:53:40

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

i use the pinky instead if the "a" witch is to short for me

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 13:55:05

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to duende)

Funny thing, I used to use the pinky all the time too. Then I started practising a-i-p and a-i-i only because I was seeing it all over the place and later playing tresillos por fandangos I realized I was using the ring instead of the pinky

I know someone who uses the m-finger, I tried it and it made my hand go numb from bending the wrist...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 14:19:17

wiseguy493

Posts: 73
Joined: May 9 2007

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

I also prefer to use e-i-p over a-i-p.

One thing I like to do is to start with e-i-p then go to a-m-i then am-p-p so the rasgueado "strengthens" from the weak first beat to the powerful third beat and then for the alternating weak-strong beats I'll usually go with e-i-p. This may be excessive in alternating rasgueado techniques for performance, but at the very least it's good practice LOL

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 14:20:57

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

for me it's p-a-m, i can't get the i in there, a-i-i works fine though...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 14:52:44

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Yeah, I agree with the a,i,i technique as well. I think Tomatito uses it. Its better for light rasgueo and then I use p,m(a),p for heavy rasgueo.
Since the a and i fingers are roughly the same length its easier than using m which I find gets in the way.
The debate on using the pinky is ongoing. Basically if you can do it then there is no reason not to but i could never make it work because
1. I never seem to be able to grow a long or strong enough nail on the pinky
2. I never use the pinky for any other technique so it feels odd trying to incorporate it in rasgueo
3. the pinky only has half the strength of the other fingers and there are plenty of finger combinations left with p,i,m and a which produce a more secure sound.

Is anyone out there mad enough to practice picado with a,e fingers? Not even Gerardo does that!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 15:43:06

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

The first rasg I learned before I even new flamenco was p up a down and i down but over the years it became p e i , I can do this quit fast but it just doesnt have the punch like the Marote triplet rasg which is p up ma down and p down, and yes some do it with p i p or p m p. I have bee struggling with the p m p for a while but it's coming along slowly, Todd mentioned that he never heard me do it so I have been working on that with little growth but I will keep trying.

Any way I would agree that the a i p is for softer rasg and the p m p is for strong triplet rasg. Question though should these be practiced starting with different fingers starting the rasg and what is the proper way to start them, I always thought it was p but I noticed that Jeronimo doesnt even use p m p he uses a i p and starts with his a finger. Good subject man.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 15:56:19

wiseguy493

Posts: 73
Joined: May 9 2007

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

I practice picado using the a finger for zapateado but that's really the only time I've seen a useful reason to apply it instead of just i-m. I sometimes use it in farruca though

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 16:32:22

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

So when you use a-i-p what do you guys do with the m finger? Do you crawl it really far to the palm?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 17:10:30

tmock

Posts: 143
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
From: New York, New York

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Bogdan,

I would definitely not pull the m finger into the palm during a-i-p rasgueado. At least for me, that creates a lot of tension in the i and m fingers. Just pull it up a tiny bit like you're winding up for a big picado stroke. The key is to try to keep it as relaxed as you can. It's no big deal if it moves back and forth a bit with either the a or i fingers, either. Whatever avoids tension in the other fingers.

Check out this video for a pretty good illustration of what I'm talking about. See how the tip of his m finger is just a little out in front of the rest?

Travis.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 17:38:35

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to Bogdan1980)

quote:

So when you use a-i-p what do you guys do with the m finger? Do you crawl it really far to the palm?

I can't go that way, my m finger stays outward.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 17:41:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

don't see any big difference yet

Every rasgueado has some sort of benefit or reason, but mostly it is just fun to have different ways to make rhythms, like the millions of sticking patterns for 16th notes and what not in drumming. Like why do paradidldels when I can just straight stick every rhythm???

Anyway, for me a i p is more versital than some other tresillos in the sense that you have more dynamic range. For example in Verdiales, you can do the heavy beat and the tresillos without the tresillos being too loud. I save up p-am-p or whatever Morote combo for louder triplets. You cant really use that technique and have nice speedy triplets that are dynamically soft enough the way you need.

Also, you have to wip the wrist really hard and wide when doing marote so you don't have the same easy at shifting. a-i-p keeps your hand and arm in a position to move a bit faster to some other position. Also, you can hit all 6 strings or only a couple strings with a-i-p, where as it is harder to target a specific range of string with Marote. Usually you are going for volume and all 6(or min 5 if you mute the 6th) with Marote.

a-i-i has similar benefits. I can do it pretty loud and do it instead of Marote in a lot of cases. Again, you focus on the treble strings say, you don't try to hit all 5 or 6 strings of a chord with a-i-i. So all these techniques have a specific use or benefit to me.

In general I think of saving the Marote for louder dynamics, and faster rhythms. I will do p-am-p, or even p-iam-p with all 3 fingers hitting the strings as one for even more volume. And finally the loudest is to just go down and up real fast with the whole hand. Also I might to 16th or 32nd note groups of 4 or 8 using Marote techniques, because they go fast and loud. The other finger techniques for triplets, iia, pai, etc are easier to do at slower speed if I need. Marote is not fun to do slower, at least for me.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2007 19:00:53

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

i've been using a-i-i but after watching a merengue de cordoba video i've started practising p-e-i. i like the sound of the strokes and the movement itself feels good, up with thumb, then just relasing the hand and letting it roll down... i find doing both of these continuously much more difficult than p-a-p r p-ma-p. do you use a-i-i or e-i-p/a-i-p for continuous rasguedos?

btw, i think i'll take up wiseguys approach for practising, sounds great for practising position switching.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2007 10:34:43

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

how would you do all downstroke triplets? i've heard guitarists do it in tangos for effect, like a continuous pounding. i've tried achieving the effect with m-i-i but the upstroke takes away some of the effect.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2007 10:40:39

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

Here Vicente does p-am-p which appears, as it was mentioned above, quite powerful.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2007 11:08:09

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to mrMagenta)

I use a-i-i for bulerias speed when I don't want to change position, otherwise a-p-p generally for tresillos. a-i-p I still need to get used to, but I like it.

In the same respect there's a-m-i-i as opposed to p-e-i-p (or p-a-i-p) which I use for tangos, fandangos and sevillanas.

I use a-m-i-i or p-a-p-p as an accent for just about any palo.

There's a million correct ways to do it. It's a question of what is best for the individual.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2007 12:04:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

forgot about p-e-i. Yeah same idea as p-a-i and same kinds of uses. Some folks hold e and a together for a more solid sound and feel. p-ea-i, etc. Middle finger just sticks out relaxed, never curled in.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2007 18:45:15

wiseguy493

Posts: 73
Joined: May 9 2007

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

Has anyone else hear read "The Art of Rasgueado" book by Ionassis Annostassakis?

Greek names confuse my dumb American mind, so that might be wrong LOL

Anyway, good book and covers more variations of rasgueado than I'd ever care to learn!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2007 20:38:09

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

quote:

compared to the old method

What's the old method?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2007 22:33:14

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to John O.)

I think you use the different (techniques) strokes (as said) for the different effects you are trying to achieve, and knowing what you want to achieve is the difficult part; that is a matter of cognition, and the techniques are a matter of practice. So, I never really use one way. Great topic!

Gary

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2007 3:04:32

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: a-i-p rasgueado (in reply to Estevan)

According to a guy I met at the course Gerardo called the soleá remate with the pinky the "old-fashioned" way of playing it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2007 9:05:04