Innovative Guitars

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Innovative Guitars

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sianturi

Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 18 2007

Innovative Guitars

Hi all,

in general for luthiery of flamenco guitars there applies more or less conservative paradigms. There is a strong tendency to use living materials, bones instead of plastic, wood instead of carbon fibre, to name just two.

When browsing through some internet shops I found a guitar called Ovation. Most of them are steel string models, but there are also nylon models. Some models feature a carbon tapa. Nearly all models feature a customized pick-up system.

Did anybody of you played such guitar and found it suitable for flamenco? Maybe the guitars are good for accompanying dance.

Thanks,
Sianturi

_____________________________

Mir hen oi Flamenco, in Filderstadt!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 12:30:23

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to sianturi)

I don't think Ovation specifically make a "Flamenco" model guitar. But correct me if I'm wrong...

Jb

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 13:42:35

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to sianturi)

I haven't tried the ovation nylon string, but I have played an ovation steel string. I wasn't very fond of the oval back - it kept wanting to slide off my leg. Great sound, though, for a steel string.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 20:00:47

Guest

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to sianturi)

ovetion.....flamenco.......never....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 20:29:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to sianturi)

sianturi, are you serious? Weren't you the guy saying he wants to sing "cante" but you wonder if Ovation would be good for flamenco?

That is like wandering if a country western singer might apply his vocal style to cante!

On Friday night in sanfran, J. McLaughlin used a nylon string Ovation on Frevo with Paco. Notice how "dead" and toneless the treble strings are compared to Paco's guitar. And the "feel" of them? I would rather play flamenco on a Fender Strat.

OK, having said all that...

http://grodecki.com/Gallery/Concerts/GuitarEvening/Guitar%20Evening%20011.jpg

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 1:53:36

legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo, don't get mad. I'm sure this one was an endorsement. Paco is used to that, no ?

I just played one Ovation, and simply would say :

quote:

ovation.....flamenco.......never...

Seriousely, some could be good "struming" guitars. For rumbas. If you see what i mean.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 2:25:28

sianturi

Posts: 13
Joined: Feb. 18 2007

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

Hi Ricardo,

maybe I should explain how I got that thought about Ovation. Actually my post is not about that company, it's about technical innovations.

Flamenco guitars feature a more brilliant sound than classicals, and for dance a good volume is necessary. Why not use new high-tech materials to achiveve that? If I were a luthier I definitely would have checked out carbon tapas and rounded backs, at least just for curiosity.

In this forum you can read statements like "it's the player - not the guitar" quite frequently. If you use new materials, you expect the sound to be changed. Some will like it, some not. But if the player is flamenco, the guitar will also be flamenco.

So I'd really like to know about luthiers who go for innovations, I'm just curious.

Thanks,
Sianturi

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 9:32:48

legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to sianturi)

Sianturi,

There is a french luthier, Michel Donadey, whose guitar are very hard to find second-hand unfortunatly, who is using carbon fiber or lattice and really "weird" bracing designs for his flamenca's. I can't find back a picture I had, but will post it if I do.
I must say I've never heard such a bright and loud blanca, but it could be other parameters than simply the "modern" materials and designs. A teacher only swear by his guitars, and says he's always astonishing dancers by the volume and brightness of the guitar...
I'm sure some other builders out there are experimenting a lot also but overall I think you're right, flamenco building seems to be rather on the traditional side...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 14:41:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to sianturi)

quote:

Why not use new high-tech materials to achiveve that?

Yeah I know what you meant, I was just having some fun. There is a great book by Jose Ramirez III called "things about the guitar." He has a short chapter on Flamenco guitars but sums it up pretty clearly. Basically, he and other classical guitar makers, have been able to experiment and do a lot of fun things with guitar making for classical guitarists.

But when it came to flamenco, he found it quite strange that the players were very hard to please even with very minor modifications to the standard model established in the early 1900's. Basically, he could not get any decent feedback from the players other than "this guitar is loud, or this guitar is good, but it is not flamenco...". And with only that to go on, he found more success with just doing it the traditional way. I am sure other makers who are into experimenting, have discovered the same. I admit as a player, I have thought a lot about the technical reasons, but in the end my hands tell me the same. The guitar is or is not "flamenco" enough by design.

Sort of mysterious, but it might have to do with connecting with the tradition, the "old" sound and smell of things that are evoked by the sounds a good flamenco guitar produces. I honestly don't see anything changing from the basic pattern, anytime soon.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 23:58:12

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Innovative Guitars (in reply to sianturi)

Hi all,

My cousin has a nylon-string Ovation. He is not a really dedicated guitar player. He's happy singing campfire songs and accompanying himself with his Ovation. For that purpose it's a terricfic guitar. Built like a tank and will last a lifetime (non of the usual problems associated with guitars made of wood - ie. humidity...).
However, when compared to my Alhambra 10F Negra, it's a world of difference. The Alhambra is an amazing guitar in it's price range, and the Ovation just lacks everything the Alhambra has. No note definition, dull trebles and no sustain in the bass strings.
The Ovation is a fine instrument, but not for a dedicated flamenco guitarist in my humble opinion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2007 3:20:13