Capo'ing question

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Capo'ing question

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n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

Capo'ing question

Until about 2 years ago I played almost exclusively steel string guitar, and play a Martin OM-28. I can capo that guitar anywhere, and the intonation is dead on, and if re-tuning is neccesary, it is minimal at most.

Now my nylon string Yamaha Flamenco, is another story entirely. It is a real beast, and when I capo it anywhere, the strings are always out of tune. I have this ritual of tugging on the strings, and retuning which I have to go through each time I re-capo. I use a Shubb classical guitar capo.

My question, is this - Are Nylon string guitars prone to this kind of problem when they are capo'd that they just need retuning, or is it just the Yamaha's intonation is not so great? Or both?

Do the good Flamenco guitar's have this kind of problem too?

Thanks,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 17:25:09

legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Capo'ing question (in reply to n85ae)

Hey, I have a weird experience about this issue : my cheap raimundo with "no-brand" tuners always stays in tune when capoed while my Devoe with 250$ Sloane tuners needs a lot of retuning... But i don't know if it's particular to nylon guitars, except the "bad tuners" issue...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 17:33:41

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Capo'ing question (in reply to n85ae)

quote:

My question, is this - Are Nylon string guitars prone to this kind of problem when they are capo'd that they just need retuning,

Yes. Nylon strings are real sensative and if the action is super low like most steel strings can get away with, they sound like crap. All the nylon string guitars I know that are TOO low and sound like that, have no tuning problems with the capo. So it is a bit of a trade off. The higher the action, the worse it will be.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 17:56:39

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Capo'ing question (in reply to n85ae)

I had a problem with my Yamaha flamenco too. Always sounded out when I put on the capo. I found that if I flattened the 2nd and 3rd string very slightly, it sorted the problem. Of course, I'd never ever used a capo before three months ago. So it could have been me not used to putting it on right and maybe pulling at the strings a bit.
Seems ok for now.
I also found the tone sadly lacking as well, but I now get a pretty good sound now. I must have developed a much stronger picking technique over the months.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 20:00:50

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Capo'ing question (in reply to n85ae)

Playing a Raimundo 130 classical, more often than not with a capo, and if there are tuning issues I sure can't hear them. Out of curiosity, why would there be? A capo is just holding down a fret across all the strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 22:21:41

legrec

Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France

RE: Capo'ing question (in reply to Adam)

I agree it sounds bizarre at first but I can assure you that if I do not use a capo I can stay in tune for several days, but if I use one and change his position frequently, I'll have to retune. As a capo is working as a sort of nut I guess it changes the pressure/tension point on the strings, and gives this string or tuner issue... For sure also IMO, my sound is somewhat different with and without the capo, or according to its position. I can hear sensible volume/sustain changes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2007 22:29:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Capo'ing question (in reply to n85ae)

quote:

Out of curiosity, why would there be? A capo is just holding down a fret across all the strings.

The guitar is mathematically designed to be equal tempered. But no guitar is truely perfect, that is the problem with equal tempered tuning anyway. But guitars with low action, will have better intonation, because pushing down the string affects the distance between the fret and the Bridge. Pushing the string too hard on a high action guitar, especially higher frets, you will notice the effect as the pitch changes. Low action guitars require less finger pressure, and therefore are actually harder to "push" in or out of tune. Side to side "classical" vibrato is much nicer to control on higher action guitars. Unless you have high frets or scalloped neck on your low action guitar.

Anyway, the capo is not a perfect machine that applies perfectly even pressure across all 6 strings. Also depends how close to the fret wire you tighten the capo. I like to put the capo very close to the fret wire, so what that does is bend the wimpy strings a lot (the trebles) expecially G and B strings sharp. I tug on those first off, to get them close to the pitch they should be. If I tug too hard, and they are flat, you can gently push behind the nut. It is a balancing act. Some folks put the capo way back toward the head stock. In fact put the capo on, then pull the thing back toward the head stock to notice what happens to the pitch of the strings. Experiment. Don't just slap it on and say "what is wrong with this stupid guitar!"

Anyway, my point is it really depends on the action of the guitar mainly. So since the capo and fingers are not perfect transposers, I suggest these rules when tuning any guitar.

1. Never tune with your fingers on the neck. That means don't tune to fretted chords. Tune to what ever note you are supposed to tune to, the OPEN strings only. Your finger pressure will have to learn how to play in tune, not pushing or pulling too hard, but just right. You don't have any such control when playing open strings, so they need to be RIGHT ON.

2. When using the capo, tune AFTER the thing is put on. Don't even waste time tunning open first. Put the capo on, then tune the OPEN strings (meaning, open to what ever fret the capo is on) to your tuning source. Whether that is the keyboard, bass, flute, your ear, whatever.

Oh, these are just my opinions by the way.