[Deleted]

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

[Deleted]

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Guest

[Deleted]

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2007 22:34:37

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

Hi Romerito

I dont agree..... The idea was very good, but the problem with this work is that you have all these examples in score which you cannot hear. This because of copyright issues. Worms uses examples of famous players and he cannot put these examples on CD.

Another very serious problem is that he writes "d´apress some famous player"
Not saying the track or album, meaning you have to listen to all of PDL´s (or other) albums in order to find the example. Another evn worse problem is that he uses a lot of examples from very old hispavox vinyl recordings. Im possible to find, and he doesnt give you any hints.

In all. A very good and profound idea, but it doesn´t work. IMO scores without music examples are worthless in flamenco

I dont think Herrero did much work on the Traité books. I think its mostly Claude Worms who did the work, using a lot of experience from his Duende series.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 8:19:17

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

In reply to Anders I really disagree strongly. If you can read music and you are familiar with the style you hear the falseta in youre inner ear as you look at the score. So a flamenco book without a cd is only as useless as your music reading skills. It is dissapointing that you cant hear everything on them because a recording is very motivating but I think they tried thought really hard and presented their material to the best of their ability. Theit recent buleria book in particular is considerably more thorough than anything else I have seen on the market.

_____________________________

'We've all got it coming.' -William Munny

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 12:01:52

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Methods (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Looking again at your post Anders I notice that you claim that Hererro wasnt that involved. However there are selections of Hererro falsetas in every book and on the recording. Also on the volume on technique you will find 24 Hererro etudes along with recordings. Im not trying to nitpick here but I really enjoyed these books.

_____________________________

'We've all got it coming.' -William Munny

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 12:08:24

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

Hi Guitarbuddha

I´ve got the first 4 volumes and I´ve had them for years. I know the Herrero etudes and falsetas etc and I think the intention and the quality of the work is very good, but the lack of music turns it down and I will only recommend it to experienced players.

I can read music at a good level (Used to play violin in the Copenhagen youth symphonic orchestra) and I know what you mean by saying that you can read the falsetas and get a feel, BUT that means the books are useless for beginners. They are only for high level students IMHO.
Another thing is that I think it can be discussed a lot whether flamenco as a music form is easy to write down. Modern flamenco is not that difficult, but when you use old stuff....... Hmmm I think we miss a lot of details. I´ve just wathed a siguiriyas from Rito y Geografia del cante (vol5) where Perico el del Lunar Hijo accompanies Miguel Vargas. Its wonderfull, but I doubt very much that it can be written down and look like it sounds.

So, you will recommend the 5th volume, bulerias? Maybe I should get it.

Anders

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 13:08:11

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 14:35:31

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 17:36:36

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Along with his dvd series, there is none better. If one had a substantial amount of money($300) they could buy the first 3 dvds or so, the traite(written with the help of worms) and the accompaniment for alegrias and solea cds.
If you don't have a teacher, this material and the way it is presented would be a very good didactic collection to have.

I agree. Nothing better out there exept maybe Paco Peñas Toques Flamencos, Rito and Geografia de cante y toque to inspire AND a teacher. (Thats my advice. Wonderfull midlevel material)
Herreros Vid/DVD are good but also a bit ZZZZZZZZZZ I wont recommend the volume 3 until you have a high level. The Traite (I seriously dont know who wrote it and who helped) is very good, but its very intellectual and the problem with the music examples is obvious. I think volume 2 is very good. By far the best and will recommend it to anyone with reading skills.

I have the books and the DVD´s but I dont really use them. I find them to cold. I prefer DVD a-b loops and CD with the absolutely amazing slowdowner. I know that I´m a lazy punk and a weirdo and that I should go out of my door and play with some other guys and take lessons. The problem is that when I open the door I always think..... uhhhhh its scary out there

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 18:09:14

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

Hi Anders thank you for your reply which was I think more polite than I deserved. I suppose that I find being able to read so useful that I would encourage anyone to do it concurently with a heavy program of listening and flamenco practice. The suggestion that reading is not useful is one that I have seen too many pupils embrace and its not generally because of their love of hard work.
Perhaps I could suggest a good method for sight reading. IMHO the Arron Shearer book published by Mel Bay, learning the classic guitar (green cover ) is good. Although not actually in any way meant for flamenco guitarists it is very well structured and really helped me get my sight reading up and running.

Another tip might ber to use something like the program Band in a Box for practicing . There is a style called Afro cuban 6/8 thats really useful for practicing buleria. You can get it to change harmony to suit the section of music you are listening to and it is so much more rewarding and encouraging to listen to than a metronome that your ear will be drawn to it. It will also play at absolutely any tempo you ask it to. Also using it encourages you to work out the harmony of the piece you are learning and this is gives you more information to carry forward into your own composition and improvisation. As for toques flamencos a great book and possibly the finest performance on any method Ive ever heard. The accuracy of the notes is great and these are proper pieces. Not sure about the transcription of Alzapuia though.

_____________________________

'We've all got it coming.' -William Munny

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 19:00:31

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 20:11:32

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

by the way.

I saw that theres a DVD out on Sevillanas accompaniment.
I realy hope they´re thinking about doing a whole series of palos with the basic
Baile and guitar.
I figure it would be better than most "solo" guitar instruction since this would be something to use in accompaniment in real life (outside the bedroom)

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2007 20:35:05

Guest

RE: Methods (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

.... uhhhhh its scary out there

why its scary out there? .....
?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2007 0:31:58

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

quote:

why its scary out there? .....

The boogeymann is waiting for you..... They are comming to take you away ha ha ..... To the funny farm.

Just joking.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2007 7:10:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14857
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I saw that theres a DVD out on Sevillanas accompaniment.

What is there to "accompany"??? Unless they mean the singing?

I think all these methodical things are good references, especially for teachers, but for a student learning on his own, it really depends on how good a musician the student is, to use that stuff like a "method". I mean, the student needs to really understand both what he wants, and where he is at right now. It is really hard to step out of one's self.

Just a couple of points many have heard from me before, sorry to sound like a broken record for some. Herrero is good and shows the "right stuff" IMO, but I dont' like how he constantly shows the student also the "incorrect" techniques and positions. I don't get that, because there are many players that play the exact "wrong way" he describes, and are better players than him. Again, his stuff is good "reference", but I dont' reccomend as a "method". Next, reading music is a good skill to have if you want to be considered a "musician", but for the flamenco only student, NOT NECESSARY at all. That does not mean reading music will hurt your flamenco necessarilly, or that it is "bad luck" or "evil" or something ridiculous. Simply that it is irrelevant to learning flamenco properly.

About altered falsetas for copyright purpose. Dont' understand the point. What is being "protected" by that? If you want to learn jerez style, than learn the falsetas of parrilla and morao, as close to exactly the same as they play, that you can. No need to study "jerez method" or techniques of Herrero. Want "moron" style? Same deal. No need to settle for "moron-ish" falsetas. Hope you get what I mean.

Lastly, metronome is most important. If you think you don't need it fine, so long as if one was on while you were playing, you don't mind it or get "annoyed" by it...don't "fight" with it in other words. Loops of "compas" or percussion are fine, fun and good to practice with, but metronome is better for a number of reasons.

Ok same old speil, Peace

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2007 7:12:05

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

Romerito

I totally agree that if you work alone, the Herrero DVDs are very good, and the Worms/Herrero books are also the best you can get because as you say they offer you some kind of understanding of what you do. I think the reason I´m dissapointed with the books is that they are good, but why dont they write where the music examples are from. It would have been SOOO much better if they had written the CD/LP where you can find the music (eg. d aprés PDL, soniquete, ZYRYAB) and they wouldnt have had any trouble with copyright etc.

I worked in a shop selling guitars, CD´s and scores and even though I havent followed the market, I think I can say that you wont find any other method explaining you the background of the playing.
One thing that you can do is to work with dance DVD´s. They wont tell you what and how to play, but they´ll give you a chance to understand the structure of the dance.

I used to take violin clases at a high level, with very good and very professional teachers. It was extremely awarding. When I started playing flamenco here, I got so dissappointed that I only took 5 clases. I found the level of teaching VERY low. No real interest in teaching. Just money, looking outside the window, not listening when you play, no scores, no nothing. complete lack of beginner level falsetas, no teaching compás etc. I actually prefered my Herrero/worms material.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2007 7:24:45

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2007 8:32:30

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2007 8:35:15

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Methods (in reply to Guest)

About technique I think its all about sound. The important questions are, are you getting the sound you want ? Does it stay smooth as you approach the desired speed. Sometimes I have let my idea of 'correct' technique prevent me finding the sound that I want.
I was looking on Youtube at Paco playing Impetu and there is such a variety in his right hand strokes for picado. He uses each to get the colour or effect that he wants to enhance each passage. He always does what he knows will work musically and guitaristically. He never restricts himself to a small minded idea of what is 'correct'.
About those players whose techniques look ungainly. If it works musically then it works. However if it looks ugly it will generally take more time and work to maintain a technique, it will be less reliable and more tiring and more likely to lead to strain and injury. If you are looking for a model then look at paco or nunez or someone with few bad habits it will be easier on your hands in the long run and one of the things that they have in common is tremendous VARIETY of technique. Hell look at John Williams and Tuck Andress, Victor Wooten or even Earl Skruggs they are all rock solid and there are things in all their playing which can be stolen, borrowed or in some other way learned from.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2007 15:13:08