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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)
Mr magneta u right
I am not looking to step over Juan but using him as an example to make a litlle point, u know just discussing.
this is not for everybody but... truth is , if i haD only 20 bucs and had to chose between a Juan album that Otmars i would chose otmars, atlist i can close my eyes and go places even if no flamenco, with Juans i would remain right there in front of the pc wondering HOW ??.
Sonikete, i am not talking about Ottmar beeing flamenco or anywhere near, id have to be a moron to think that.
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
Sure but we are not talking about opinions, at least im talking about if there is any criteria that separates juan from ottmar when it comes to being flamenco or not. Or if anyone just can play anything they like and call that flamenco.
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
Juan can probably accompany cante, for instance. Imagine singing with Ottmar.. Part of the criteria: Ottmar doesn't even play the flamenco styles (not seriously).
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
Juan can probably accompany cante, for instance. Imagine singing with Ottmar.. Part of the criteria: Ottmar doesn't even play the flamenco styles (not seriously).
Yes, thats what i mean, there are objective criteria that separates them, and defines it. Then if someone think its good or bad music thats another issue and has nothing to do with the criteria that separates one thing from another.
quote:
They destroyed the very thing they loved about it, the culture. Now it is a commercialized reflection of its former self. Ottmar represents the rape of this culture(my culture) to me. Flamenco is not my culture but remember I wrote he REPRESENTS this. He is trying to play "latin" music. It is very offensive to some "latinos."
Yes, thats what get me going as well even if im not even latino. I have spent my life listening to it, playing it, studying it and struggling with, so i think i have the right to say something about it
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
Well i already answered that, good or bad are subjective, flamenco is not. Even if some people here seems to disagree with me on that.
I did say there were "defining traits" that distinguished what "Flamenco" was, and that THE REST was subjective.
Ottmar? Who cares. As long as he doesn't claim to be real Flamenco, then it doesn't matter. If people wanna listen to Ottmar's work then so be it. maybe small things please small minds, if you wanna think like that. But I'm not one of these "Flamenco-Nazis" that goes around bashing anything thats not to their particular tastes. Gentrification? I'm sure Ottmar himself is not DIRECTLY responsible for it, even if he has come to REPRESENT it in anyone's mind.
Jb
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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
I did say there were "defining traits" that distinguished what "Flamenco" was, and that THE REST was subjective.
Yes, thats what im saying too
quote:
I'm sure Ottmar himself is not DIRECTLY responsible for it, even if he has come to REPRESENT it in anyone's mind.
As i said before i think it was a marketing gimmick to start a new subgenre, and it succeded, now you have a ton of ottmar ripoffs that cashes in on that false marketing scheme and it has nothing to do with if i like their music or not.
Any real musican tries to be honest and play from their heart as has been said here before, but it doesnt matter how much they put their heart into something if its a lie to begin with.
Grisha is doing as much good for the reputation of guiri flamencos (and im happy that he plays like he does and Id be even happier if he accompanied. ) as Ottmar is doing destroying it, so yeah its sensitive for me .
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
He doesn't claim to be flamenco but he allows the recording industry to market him as flamenco and he had a hand in the initial NOUVEAU naming of his genre. He can wash his hands all he wants but the public has already been misled, the damage is done.
Well, I think "Nouveau Flamenco" is something quite different to Flamenco puro. But I can see that the two sharing one of the words (and particularly such a meaningful word) might lead to un-necessary confusion.
As for the gentrification... it happens all over the place, all over the world, and perhaps its sometimes inevitable. But I don't think ottmar should be made a "scapegoat" for it, even if he is wealthy.
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
quote:
I bet the marketing executives that came up with the noveau flamenco scheme was thinking exactly like that.
"Flamenco? - who cares"
IMO it was probably an attempt to "cash in" on an authentic and recognized culture (Flamenco), whilst at the same time differentiating between between the culture and the work in question by adding the word "Nouveau". So in other words, they are saying: "ah, its a bit like Flamenco, but not really..."
And maybe you're right... why would an Ottmar Liebert fan have any more respect for Paco De Lucia than a PDL fan would have for Ottmar?
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
To be serious its about greed all over the place nowadays and thats one of the things that drew me to flamenco, there are aspects of that culture that is the complete opposite of that kind of rape and plunder mentality.
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