RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

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[Poll]

NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

after playing for baile 10 years and cante ten years

8% (3)

Once they have mastered compas

13% (5)

once they have mastered all flamenco techniques and compas

16% (6)

once they play 'la cucaracha' and yell ole at the end

13% (5)

when they play with true aire

22% (8)

when they can play 'la feria' just like juan martin

5% (2)

once theyve ripped off a car with some gypsies

5% (2)

once they wear the frilly shirts and sing 'po dom pom pom'

2% (1)

once they become a 'guiri in denial'

0% (0)

after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory

11% (4)

Total Votes : 36

(last vote on : Dec. 23 2015 16:38:33)

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sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

i hope u looked back and u realized u were wrong in thinking i called u any names.

No that wasnt you that was directed towards, someone else did. And i feel that people should be able to have different opinions without getting the fists up in the air.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 10:22:22

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

whomever did, he got a litlle fustrated and did it in the spare of the moment, but then tought better and removed it.

i think that the fact that he removed it pretty much straight away should count for something.

we all have moments

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 10:40:31

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Yeah, i do to and im ok with it, its something that comes with expressing a view i guess.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 10:42:19

cavaliotis

Posts: 94
Joined: Dec. 12 2005
From: GREECE

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

My answer is:
when they can understand the struggle between threes and twos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:06:57

David83

Posts: 28
Joined: Nov. 29 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Well guys, take it easy. I'm gonna clarify my words, so that none of you get a wrong idea of what I wanted to say.

When I said

quote:

When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist? -> When they can accompany cante and baile, and play solo too.

I meant that the guy who can do that can be considered as a "real" flamenco guitarist, or rather, as a complete flamenco guitarist. However, that does not make you unable to say, if you don't have access to a singer (as it's always happened to me) but can play bulerías, tangos, rumbas or fandangos, for example, that you can play flamenco. Of course you can!

For example, Grisha plays flamenco amazingly (much better than most of the guitarists I know), but while he can't accompany a singer or a dancer, he won't be a complete flamenco guitarist. It doesn't mean either that, when he's listening to cante, he can know by intuition what tune is next, and if he started to work on that, he'd get it very quickly, because he's got an astonishing musical intelligence. I hope he does it soon

I hope I made myself clear. Regards

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:16:25

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Yes, but thats what the question in this thread was about.

quote:

NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

That doesnt mean anyone that didnt accompany couldnt "play flamenco" Grisha does that better than most, as i said earlier. And im sure he wouldnt have too much trouble learning to accompany, as i also said earlier.

But am just afraid this thing will just explode again.

But thanks for clarifying it, David! It might not get so attacked when coming from you since you are spanish

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:24:42

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

LOL the funny thing here ofcourse is that none of us know what Grisha calls himself. He didnt even ask to be part of this conversation. His only fault is that he plays solos too good

and he probably dosent even care

but if he wants to call himself " Pimp daddy Grisha, i will call him that" cause hes just too good not to

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:27:26

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

But thanks for clarifying it, David! It might not get so attacked when coming from you since you are spanish

lol wel then its setlled

absoluteley no offence to david i know he makes a good point but , next time lets make the name to all the threads according to you " what does David say cause hes spanish"

u dont need the rest of us here

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:34:10

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest) 1 votes

Well I would say when they have no concern for these types of question, or the need to categorise and comfort themselves through having 'attained' something. If a guitarist has to worry about if he's Flamenco, then he isn't.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:34:13

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

But this wasnt so much about Grisha as about what you have to do to earn the title "true" or "complete" flamenco guitarist.

And i got gang raped for saying the same thing as David and the same thing that is a shared view among a lot of other people i know, spanish and non spanish guitarists.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:35:36

David83

Posts: 28
Joined: Nov. 29 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Well, I think ain't more right than others just for being Spanish... it's just that I've listened to and played flamenco for some years, and I think I understand it quite well. Don't quarrel for that, guys. And about our friend Ottmar Liebert, I'll speak other time and in other thread; writing so much things in English (or trying to do it properly

) is driving me crazy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:38:28

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Well I would say when they have no concern for these types of question, or the need to categorise and comfort themselves through having 'attained' something. If a guitarist has to worry about if he's Flamenco, then he isn't.

Yes, If you are doing it then its quite irrelevant. But i think here are a lot of beginners using this forum as a way of learning and in that context i cant see the harm in clarifying common definitions.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:39:12

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

sorry david , i dont mean to put this on you , or question your knolodge, it was just the was Sonikete replied to your answer and made me replie that way.

as if to say this overides everything everyone else has talked about so far, wich means i just waisted my time joining this discussion if only 1 opinion counts.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:42:15

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

writing so much things in English (or trying to do it properly ) is driving me crazy

Say it in spanish and ill try to translate it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:47:41

David83

Posts: 28
Joined: Nov. 29 2006

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

It doesn't matter Florian, I got your point. But c'mon, let's try not to change the subject matter of this topic. We just try and do our best, and that's the most important thing, more than any denomination.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:49:03

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to David83)

quote:

We just try and do our best, and that's the most important thing, more than any denomination

I agree,

besides i am out of stuff to say about the subject

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 11:52:07

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Yes, if it's from the heart that's all that should matter to us as individuals

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 12:20:31

hassurbanipal

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

ok, I'm going to play advocate from the devil now.

you can see that when your heart is in it or you can say it's when you don't think about: 'am I a flamenco guitarist'.
But there is a difference. there is no music style I can think of now that has certain things that are so needed like flamenco, like compas. You can not play buleria like you want, no?
for instance, in pop or classical you can play whatever you want and define it as a popsong or a classical composition but you can not say that in flamenco, or can you?
That makes a totally different picture to look at.
This is just my humble opinion and please correct me if I'm wrong. But when I hear someone playing bulerias totally wrong I can not say that he is a flamenco guitarist. He is trying to be one but maybe all his heart is into it but even that doesn't make it flamenco, it's music.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 14:06:43

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

When they learn to speak in complete sentences?

Ok, what did I win?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 14:20:43

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Francisco)

the shortest answer in this thread award

Ops!

i took it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 14:24:35

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 14:27:02

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Actually Samwise's answer was quite accurate. The word "Flamenco" means different things to different people, so there probably isn't a "true definition". To some degree its subjective, although the general concensus would seem to be that there are a few defining traits. The rest is a matter of opinion...

Jb

_____________________________

¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 14:32:23

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

shame u couldnt say that with less words

u would have had my award now

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 14:37:14

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Yeah, ottmar is flamenco to a lot of people

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 15:09:29

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to hassurbanipal)

What about Sevdah, Fugue, Raga wrt structures and conventions?

If it's from the heart the music is genuine......the beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 15:11:13

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

I doubt anyone could "be" a fugue, but you could "be" flamenco. Its different because its a living culture not notes on a piece of paper.

And anyone would take for granted that a classical guitarist read notes, thats a part of that tradition, just as cante is in flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 15:18:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Phew! What a monster thread!!
It's taken me almost an hour to get through it LOL!

I suppose anyone can call themselves anything so long as it is within the law.
I think the thread switched between "When can someone truly call themselves a Flamenco Guitarist" to "When would Andalucian Flamencos truly call someone a Flamenco Guitarist".

The fact that there is now a special catagory in competitions for best "foreign" guitarist is a kind of (backhanded) complement to non-Spanish players.

Who cares so long as you enjoy learning/playing the music?

I'm sure players like Amir Haddad and Tino enjoy living in the culture and playing the music more than how they are viewed by others.
Like, some folk were a bit miffed about Paco being non-gypsy, but it was pretty difficult to put him down and keep him in his place.

cheers

Ron

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A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 15:25:46

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

The thing i like with the flamenco culture is that it is getting universal where you have for example danish or swedish singers, dancers and guitarists sharing stage, values and definitions with people directly from spain without any major issues.

And People Like Amir, Tino or Grisha are helping that along.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 15:29:23

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete) 1 votes

I agree Sonikete.
I'm only surmising here, but I'm pretty sure an Andalucian Flamenco would have much more in common with a Foreign Flamenco than a fellow Andalucian who cared little for Flamenco.
(Of course, that "fellow" would no doubt be the first to say that no foreigner could possibly play Flamenco.

)

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 15:50:39

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

but I'm pretty sure an Andalucian Flamenco would have much more in common with a Foreign Flamenco than a fellow Andalucian who cared little for Flamenco

No doubt

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 15:53:04