Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Musicpad
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
legrec
Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France
|
 RE: Musicpad (in reply to mmichaelson)
|
|
|
Hello everybody,
I just want to say that I've made some time ago the same "mistake", mmichaelson :
I've scanned down a lot of tabs from the Affedis Serie (I've bought the whole collection - total cost : 12x39eur = 468€, so 620$ !!) and I was so pleased to go on forums or whatever to sent these to everybody (it's so easy in a "digital era" and SEEMS to be directly on line with the "sharing" spirit of these foros).
But, one day, I met a man who is friend with Alain Faucher, the transcriber of these tabs. He told me Alain barely makes a living with his tabs and that it's hard for them to keep alive his flamenco edition organization (Affedis).
Then, I fully realized how much it's amoral and maybe dangerous (if we still want to have good tabs available) to share too much "freely" these tabs, which represents a HUGE work. Because for sure, if you have the digital tabs right on your computer for nothing, why messing up buying a 50$ booklet ?
I don't know if the words exists in other languages but in french we say "Hell is paved with good intentions". That's exactly the situation I was into (and you too, I believe) !
Just my 2 cents about "sharing" artistic content : sharing Britney Spears couldn't really be a crime. She have money until the rest of her life, and for several generations after her. Fame and fortune at an vulgar and amoral level.
Now, sharing the work of people who barely makes a living with their hard, rare and precious work seems, indeed, to be a "crime" from my moral point of view...That's why I'm "hacking" most of the "mainstream" things, and buying all the "understream" work. And flamenco related things are, mostly, into the "understream".
That's not a perfect rule, but it's the one I follow.
No disrespect intented also in my post, as El Gato said.
BTW : I do prefer using tabs on my computer than in the paper format (because of the f*k# pages turning alone). But for the price, I can't really see the other advantages of the MusicPad over the computer except the foot pedal (which is a great improvement by itself), have you got some thoughts about that ?
BTW 2 : Is someone aware of a program which could "turn" pages of a PDF document to an ajustable tempo ? (and for mac, please ;-)
I'm searching for this wonderful potential app since a long time now...
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 12 2006 11:05:07
 |
|
legrec
Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to mmichaelson)
|
|
|
I understand your point and reasoning.
And I agree with it.
But only at 50%.
Here's the "fine line" for me : Your primary teacher was the "guilty" man !
He made money with a material from a guy he didn't paid for that (and, at least, didn't ask for ?) and, very important argument for me : this particular guy "barely makes a living" with his work.
You know, I'm a young university teacher, and we developp lots of online teaching tools on public founds (which are every year more limited in France). We discovered by chance that a private company was using our tools and supports in very expensive courses. For sure, without giving any money to my University and without having asked for a permission. It's not fair and it's not moral from my point of view. This is the concretization of the palabra : "Socialization of risks, privatization of profits".
For me, the same process is going on with artistic (and scientific) things : very few people takes "all the profit" (fame and fortune) while most of the "actors" takes a lot of "financial" risks to go on their work (like most flamencos I know).
This "ecological" situation (I mean from a global point of view) is rather important for me to perceive when I can share something without "paying" and when I cannot (and how to behave in the two cases).
Speaking of artistic supports, for me it's rather clear : if the origin of the material is not from a "big" company, or an artist with international "fame and fortune", the moral responsabily lies in the hand of all the people who could be sharing this stuff with others. Each one have to decide if the hacking will really put the artist in a "bad situation", and could prevent him for going on his work, or if it'll be a "water drop in the ocean".
Frankly, I'd love to live in a world with no money, no copyrights, etc. But it's not the case.
But you see, my attitude in the end is not a 100% respectful behavior in front of copyrights problems. I'm not the "fully legit" type of guy. I have just to think (true story) about the fuc*** lawyers and company men who went one day in the Amazon jungle to impose paying a tax to some native folks because they were using a plant that had just been "copyrighted" by this company. It makes me want to hack and share all the big company material.
In the case you have explained, I'm ok with it, and do not see a big crime from your teacher (unless he's relying 100% on the "borrowed" materials, for all his lessions, during a long long time). For the same reason, I sometimes share my affedis transcriptions, in a one-to-one share and with a small comment for my friend about this "responsability" issue.
Flamenco (as every art and science) implies a sharing will and attitude, but, as my best friend Paracelsus have said long time ago "It's the dose that makes the poison".
So my "fine line" is "sharing for sure, but not too much or too broadly without rewarding the artist/creator". And my first (but not alone) criteria to share is the "estimated financial status" of the artist/creator. It's not so objective (because I can't really know what's on Britney or Alain's banks accounts), but it's my criteria...
Un saludo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 12 2006 11:56:21
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to legrec)
|
|
|
For the record, most of Alain Faucher's work, really AMAZING and heartfelt work I might add, was done WITHOUT PERMISSION and has always been sold ILLEGALLY under the table. The exception is the professionally bound books he has put out in recent years. But he has been doing it under table for years before that. Plenty of flamenco guitarists don't like the guy for doing this. Paco had him pull down all his tabs and started his own publishing company to sell his books (only 3 so far). But Faucher still sells his stuff under the table if you want it. Nuñez was not happy at all with the deal and way things went with his "official" book, and highered someone else to do his volume 2.
The guys from Encuentros might have copied some of his transcriptions, but at least they had PERMISSION to print the music book from the actual guitarist. So folks get paid back. Let me just say, Faucher's work is the best I have seen, very commendable, but don't get all bent out of shape about anyone foto copying, teaching, or sharing publicly, his "under the table" tabs. As if giving out free drugs is hurting the "drug dealer's" business. 
Ricardo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 12 2006 19:14:01
|
|
legrec
Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
OOooops... Thank you Ricardo for adding an "interesting" remark to my little knowledge. So now I guess it's really ok to share Alain's tabs...since he did it "under the table" before !?
I wasn't aware of this, that's not the "angle" used by some to present his situation. (err, maybe because it was a frog eater speaking about a frog eater? And me, frog eater, for sure, I believed it.) That's why several points of view are often better than one.
So, in the end, Faucher's work wasn't the best exemple to support my argumentation...But i'm still thinking that there are "lower" and "upper" limits when it comes to "share material".
mmichaelson : In no way I was trying to say what is "good" or "wrong" in general. I've just tried to express the way I think and try to act personnaly.
And, as you've stated before (and thanks to Ricardo also), it is clear that it is not simply a "black and white" issue and everyone has to find the right position.
It's just that, along with El Gato (stop me if i'm rambling), I've thought that saying "I've got 14 books digitalized and ready to share for free with everyone here" could pose some moral and/or legal problems...but it's still a good intention.
(errr...could you please, discretly, PM me these...errr...."inspiration sources" ?)
No, I'm kidding, I already have too much stuff, I'm inclined to buy another if I need some (even from Faucher !) and moreover I'm now in the process of trying to get rid of the well-documented "tabs addiction", to improve my ears and my own expression...
Thanks to all for these interesting reflexions...
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 12 2006 21:10:27
|
|
mmichaelson
Posts: 20
Joined: Dec. 7 2006
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to El Gato)
|
|
|
I want to thank everyone for posting in regards to my activities. Originally my intention was to obtain some kind of page turning device. Just to tell you a little bit about myself. I have been playing guitar since I was 8 years old on and off. In 2001 after 7 plus years of not touching the guitar, I began once again to reclaim my talent.
Like with any person and the talents they have, everyone has some kind of limitation. One of mine is my note reading abilities are not as good as I would like them to be. It has turned me into a tablature handicaped guitar player.
My time for practice is more limited then I would like it to be. I need to make the most of the time I have to dedicate to my talent. You can imagine that since I don't have as much time as I would like to have for learning, it's very difficult to remember pages and pages of music. Of course you can always read your notes or tablature in a book on a music stand but come time to turn that page, there is a hesitation and you have to stop playing to the turn the page unless your girlfriend is turning the page.
Stopping to the turn the page would throw off my concentration and trapped me in a sense. When I first started researching options for page turners, I found a big machine that costs more then $10,000. This was clearly out of my price range and was not practical.
I later found something called turnmate. It allows you to turn one page at a time which is good for short pieces but not 17 + pages of flamenco guitar solos. A man in Germany invented a device called Voltabene. It's probably the best page turner out there for turning actual sheet music books (paper). It's an aluminum musicstand which contains a mechanism for page turning. Perfect if you are working strictly with paper and books, not digital music. I came very close to buying this until I discovered the Musicpad.
I happen to be a very computer smart person and the musicpad is a computer so I could relate to it and it's tedious process of digitizing sheet music. I figured I would try it even with it's outrageous price, I had 45 days to evaluate and return for a full refund if I was not pleased so I bought one with all the accessories.
It was not until I started loading music in the device and being able to play some of my favorite flamenco guitar concert solos that I've been working on for a long time. I now am finally able to play through these long solos without stopping. This opened up a whole new world for me considering I had just removed my limitation of stopping to turn the pages and memorizing the music so to say.
Maybe I can't completely memorize every piece of music I work with but I am able to play them flawlessly with the musicpad. The music that I've been working on for some time. No more stopping to turn the page.
Understand that before I purchased musicpad, I have seen all of the other options out there for digital page turning. Such as foot time, musebook and estand. Out of all the choices this musicpad to me is the best choice for my situation. Now I can play this amazing flamenco guitar music that was out of my reach before my acquisition of the musicpad.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 12 2006 23:32:07
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to legrec)
|
|
|
quote:
I wasn't aware of this, that's not the "angle" used by some to present his situation.
Don't worry about it. Maybe his "friend" is trying to protect his now "legit" work, his pro published books. They are very nice, I own several of them.
I have no problem with folks who have purchased and copied or re formatted, transposed, corrected, or teach from tabs and want to share them for free with others. The thing is there are alot of folks out there, not willing to pay a DIME for sheet music, and that makes me mad for some reason. And they think because they have acquired some "free stuff" on the net, and are willing to "share it" that it entitles them to more free stuff. Like the folks that complain about how expensive the book is, or over priced the Encuentro DVD's are, but really demand help in finding "free" downloads of the vid or jpg of the corresponding book. There is a little demon in me telling me those folks are destined to never learn properly.
Ricardo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 12 2006 23:34:28
|
|
Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to mmichaelson)
|
|
|
The issue of copyrights is contentious.
When it comes to books, music or otherwise, I like to have real paper. If I can afford it, I will pay for it. If I can't then I use what I find online until I can afford it.
The same goes for music. Frankly, most sharing sites don't rip to the quality I would personally, so it's an inevitability that I will pay for the quality I want, eventually.
I feel justified in knowing that they aren't losing money from me personally.
When it comes to corporations and stuff created in digital, I think it's fair game. Laws are only valid if they're enforceable and, as we see every day, these laws aren't enforceable - too many people get away with it to even try to claim they are.
There is one circumstance where I would never feel obliged to pay:
Text books. They are so freaking expensive and they come out with new editions every second year just to force new students to pay for new books.
I'm sorry Michaelson, if you weren't spamming.
_____________________________
Callidus et iracundus.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 13 2006 1:24:40
|
|
legrec
Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
Ricardo : I have the same feeling...
But I believe (it's just "intuition", not statistics) that there are everyday more people accross the web who are aware of this and try to find a balance between sharing/"freeloading" and paying/making the necessary efforts..
(And we must be comprehensive with those who really can't afford to buy material some of my friends really are, and moreover do not make a lot of profit with what they have learned).
From my side I'm simply not much comprehensive with those who can but don't buy because it's free somewhere (when talking about the non-fame-and-fortune artists, yes I sound like a broken record), and even less if they are making money with it or forgot to mention what they have "borrowed". But again, for me it's not a "white and black" thing but rather a "It's the dose that makes the poison" thing.
The problem is to manage to form an "ecological" way of thinking these issues, with knowledge and comprehension of causes/effects/causes.. involved, and it's not easy (as your story about Faucher proves it) !
A good thing for us humans is that ideas and wisdom are contagious.
That's one part of the "alma" of this foro I presume. Making good ideas, wisdom and duende "contagious". Please, everybody, I want to be infected ! (Am I crazy to say things like that?!)
Mark : The problem of having to turn pages (whether paper or digital pages) is really annoying and breaks the playing flow - really not good when playing flamenco (when I play classical, I'm maybe stupid or too flamenco-oriented but I care less).
I guess I've unlearned a lot of rythmic patterns because of too much "tabbing" and turning pages breaks.
-Hey, we could perhaps invent a new compas, with a 13 "page turn" time. Well I think it's like a golpe, with the little difference it makes a quieter noise. Mastering this will take me a lot of time... The problem is that you must turn with some force and speed (to follow the 13' compas) but also with the hand relaxed and smooth (to express yourself with "duende" when turnin', that's very important..).
¡Del uno!
I will test it in a tablao this week-end !
(and probably will receive a chair on the corner of my dirty face for such an improvement)-
Sorry for rambling again, my question is : in your quest for a "page turner", did you ever see a "full-computer" solution ? Id. est. a small program able to scroll down pages at a given tempo in a PDF document or whatever ?
I'm using Guitar Pro, which has this ability. But most of my tabs are in the PDF format. I'm still searching for a little application to do this. Too bad I'm not much of a program developper - I'm sure there is a need for that !
Perhaps I must find a weird e-book fan (how is it possible to read a book on a screen! ¿Por qué?), who would also be very lazy, and a computer geek of course.
This man probably have my answer (if the app does not exist yet, Mark ?) !
Saludos flamencos
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 13 2006 1:34:26
|
|
legrec
Posts: 248
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
From: France
|
|
RE: Musicpad (in reply to mmichaelson)
|
|
|
Mark,
I think the "Footime" is dead on what I've been searching for such a long time (and it's for Mac osx also !).
I think I'm gonna buy the app. Thank you very much - Your quest for the best page turner had already made a happy man on this foro...(in my case knowledge is better than free stuff!)
Exitao : Just a remark about "text books" = that's why (costs+updates) they are partly paid by State founds in France. And we now have a new system (probably also used in other countries) : if at the end of the year the book is in good shape, the student get almost all his money back !
Imagine this system for guitars ! Yes I want this '82 Reyes, and if at the end of year she's in good shape, I'll take my money back (minus a small amount) !
I think I'm gonna launch a "lending flamenco guitar service", as some do now with cars, bicycles, text books,... Anyone interested in borrowing a Lester DeVoe negra for, lets say, 250$ a year ?
Legrec
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 13 2006 10:07:59
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|
Printable Version
Talking about trading digital reproductions of published copyrighted work!?!? I'm not flaming you here, my friend. I just don't want to see you get in trouble or have your first experience on the forum a negative one. Nothing wrong with discussing how your nifty device helps you archive your own purchased materials, but I'd be pretty careful about discussing trading the stuff around. If I've misinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance. No disrepect intended.
