RE: Globalization of flamenco

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Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)

Henrik, theres only about 8 cities in Australia (worth calling a city)

and majority of our population lives in this cities all tho my city is big by your standards its not that big, its probably one of the smallest in Australia, I dont know for sure Domenic might help me out here.

ps. i did say "almost" every city

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2006 17:55:39

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Cante is an aquired taste for a lot of people and takes a bit of personal effort to understand...

With great immodesty and truthfullness I have to admit that I have never met another white, non-hispanic Canadian who speaks Spanish as well as I do - and cante is really hard to understand.

I catch palabritas here and there and have to hear a song any times before it makes real sense to me (well, that's an exaggeration, with experience it gets easier, but for the first few years of being exposed to it...), and I understand that there are many hispanos outside of Spain who don't undertand half of the lyrics.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 3:02:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Exitao)

I cant understand lyrics in English. The songs I sing from the radio I make my own words half the time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 3:26:08

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Florian)

Well, i meant more as appreciation as singing rather than litterature, i bet half the singers have a hard time with the letras as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 3:52:56

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 4:22:09

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ooooooooooonce upo-o-o-o-o-o-n a ti-i-i-i-i-me
I ss-a-a-a-a--aaw
Not quite as beautiful lyrically.......

I meant cante, as vocalmusic, i also think there are some beautiful and extremely moving verses.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 5:19:45

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 5:32:24

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Florian)

We are saying the same thing again then

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 5:40:50

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Florian)

Letras in flamenco don't even need to follow any rules of grammer or syntax either.

But without some comprehension there is no interpretation.

Perhaps for the globalisation of flamenco will require the multilingualisation of cante?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 5:42:38

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 5:52:39

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Globalization ok if people don't impose their culture on the flamenco culture. No offense, but I would hate to hear swedish or english or french cante for that matter.

The singer isnt singing in french on the record i played on, and i agree with the language, i wouldnt want that kind of future either.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 6:26:22

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Florian)

Well, without cante, any flamenco that becomes globalised will be based on (solo) guitar. As the cante is the basis of the genre this globalised flamenco guitar music will become more Ottmarish.

Sort of like ballroom dance. If anyone has seen real paso dobles or rumbas and then watches how it's performed in ballrooms... It's because the techniques travelled but the culture didn't.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 13:26:00

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2006 15:31:23

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Well, without cante, any flamenco that becomes globalised will be based on (solo) guitar.

Yes, and even if there might be some grain of truth in Ottmar or Gypsy Kings opening a door for people wanting to learn the real thing, its important not to spread around misconceptions like that Flamenco isnt based on Cante, or that the guitar is somehow is detached from the song and dance and can do anything and still be 'flamenco'.

The guitar has taken a leap up in the hierarchy from mainly accompanying to an expression with just as much value as singing or dancing, it has not become detached from it.

So for people starting to learn this and are discouraged back to playing Ottmar stuff because of the incredible high level the 'real' flamenco guitar soloists have, it might be good to point out that you can get respected and valued as a flamenco guitarist, even with a lot less technique than Paco, by taking a dive into the world of Cante and learn the forms and rythms in a more folkmusic type way, rather than trying to become an elite athlete like paco after two days.

Actually if you have any ambition to become the new Paco you'll have to go thru that basic training anyway ...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2006 0:43:06

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Yes, and even if there might be some grain of truth in Ottmar or Gypsy Kings opening a door for people wanting to learn the real thing, its important not to spread around misconceptions like that Flamenco isnt based on Cante, or that the guitar is somehow is detached from the song and dance and can do anything and still be 'flamenco'.

For what it's worth, there is certainly more than a grain of truth in there :) Ottmar was my gateway into flamenco. I found his music about four years ago and that got the ball going. Now I'm studying true flamenco guitar--have been for a little while now--with a teacher, went to my first juerga this past weekend, and I'm falling more in love with flamenco by the day. The difference today is not that I enjoy Ottmar less than when I discovered him--the deeper I get into his music, the more I love it--but rather that today I understand that while he can play a fine bulerías or tangos (usually live) and uses a lot of flamenco-derived technique (his trémolo is very nice, in particular), it's not real flamenco. To his credit, Ottmar certainly acknowledges this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 3:10:15

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 4:55:36

hassurbanipal

Posts: 191
Joined: Jul. 14 2006
From: belgium

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)

To me flamenco is a way to free your emotions in music like no other music can do. I've played all the rest but there's is nothing so deep than flamenco. Ih ope you understand what I mean, it's ofcourse just my opinion.

And when you look at this I suspect that most people here who play and love flamenco have that same feeling for this style of music. And that's why we love it and why we want to play it. nothing more and nothing less, we have to make it our own and do it with respect for the culture but even more for the emotion.

And if this theory doesn't work with the real flamenco's, I always say:' I'm from Belgium and to be precise from 'vlaanderen', so I am a 'vlaming'. And in most theory's it is being said that the name flamenco was originilly inspired to our people. My language is called flamenco.......:))
this one always does the trick....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2006 6:48:52

El Gato

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 2 2005

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)

Had a few thoughts so I thought I'd chime in. I love these discussions, it's really intersting to me.

I think that non-Spaniards can and will become fantastic Flamenco Puros if they want it badly enough, simple as that. I'm with the guy who said that human beings can amazingly adapt to anything. I'll throw out a few examples, some have been brought up already but I still want to present them together.

- Americans invented basketball, volleyball and baseball but we no longer dominate any of those sports in international (Olympic and otherwise) competition. (Wait... did we invent soccer too? If so then... OUCH!)

- Black Americans invented blues, but White Britons (and peoples from other countries since then) absorbed the essence of blues music perfectly and have been pretty well received by black bluesmen as equals.

- Black American Blues begat American Rock n' Roll, but it did not evolve into "Rock" music as we know it without immense British influence. You could almost argue that "Rock" is more British than American although it's considered American because of it's Rock n' Roll and Blues roots. Haven't heard the Brits tackle American Country music yet, but have definitely heard some smokin' Country/Rockablilly guitar from guys like Mark Knopfler and Adrian Legg. Hmmm, is it still Country if it's just guitar without singing? Doh!

- Finally the last globalization point I offer is non-musical but I think pertains to the Flamenco arguement best is Far East Asian Martial Arts. Here you have an art that has extremely deep roots in the cultures, mindsets and religions of its founding countries (China, Okinawa, Korea, etc) which were all once very jealously guarded secrets. But even just within most of our lifetimes the asian martial arts communities have opened up to practicioners from all over the world to the point where many of the most highly regarded masters of some styles are no longer exclusively Asians. Sure there are martial art "Estebans" and "Ottmars" on every street corner of the US, now. And you'll get that with globalization and commercialization of anything. But the heart of the martial art community very openly accepts any serious westerner as an equal.

What's my point? Just that a heck of a lot of walls got broken down and demolished in each of these examples and there's no reason to think that it couldn't happen in Flamenco. Not saying that it will happen for sure. Flamenco definitely has it's unique challenges for non Spaniards, and even non-Andalusians. But there's plenty of hope. It's already begun.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2006 22:31:05

gardenshed

Posts: 140
Joined: Jul. 31 2006

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)

You could say this was an interesting take on the origins and future of flamenco.
It's called 'Flamenco - The European Blues'.

BBC

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2006 20:00:25

Anda

Posts: 2
Joined: Dec. 16 2006

RE: Globalization of flamenco (in reply to tmock)

I am theacher flamenco in the Netherlands, and i was there at the first flamencobiennale, great!

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Clase flamenco Holanda Utrecht.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2006 22:47:42