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Negra vs. Classical?   You are logged in as Guest
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GailP

 

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Negra vs. Classical? 
How can you tell if a guitar is a Flamenco Negra and not a Classical guitar?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:10:47
 
bernd

 

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
There are 2 kinds of nylon string guitars. One is the classical and the other is the flamenco guitar. The flamenca negra is definitively a flamenco guitar, not classical. negra means the wood of back and sides is made of rosewood instead of cyprus which is typical for flamencas. The cyprus guitars are also called flamenca blanca, just in opposite to the flamenca negra.

Saludos Bernd

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:26:53
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:28:22
 
itoprover

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
Low bridge, low action, minimal distance between strings and soundboard, shallow body, less sustain, golpeador.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:29:10
 
GailP

 

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
Can you "make" a classical guitar into a flamenco negra?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:42:55
 
koella

Posts: 2194
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From: holland

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
No you can't. You would have to lower the bridge significant. Then the strings would come too close to the fretboard.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:52:13
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
quote:

Can you "make" a classical guitar into a flamenco negra?


Depends on the intitial set up, but I think it is possible. If it was meant to be a classical, it may never sound like a well made flamenco negra. But if you can lower the bridge so the strings are only above the soundboard, the height of cigarette diameter, than you are getting close. If the action on the fingerboard is too low (buzzing notes REALLY bad), and the bridge is not as low as you need it, then you have to deal with it being more "classical". Not good for right hand strumming techniques. So of course you need a tap plate too, which can affect the sound negatively if it was not designed to have one.

I suspect that Manolo Sanlucar used a Ramirez 1A classical guitar, and lowered the action and put a golpeador on it. Sounds and works fine as flamenco negra. I personally prefer the sound of a Conde negra, but that is my taste. Compare the sounds of these two guitars:


Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:53:50
 
GailP

 

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
What would I measure to determine if the guitar I am looking to buy is a flamenco negra and not a classical? What would those measurements have to be? The guitar I am looking at was made in 1970. Were flamenco negras made in those years?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 20:58:13
 
koella

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
If it's a flamenco, there should be a golpeador on it. The strings should be not more then approx. 1 cm above the soundboard.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 21:05:38
 
Ricardo

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
1970 sure there were flamenco negras. Look at the label and tell us who made it, and whether or not it has a plastic tap plate.

Honestly it does not matter so long as you like the sound and playability for flamenco.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 21:10:39
 
Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
If it is a flamenco negra, it will probably have quite a few cigarette burn marks on the varnish, and be beat to h--l above and below the strings near the bridge. It will probably show signs of being left out overnight and not in its case, and perhaps even one of those circle-shaped marks you get when you leave a beer on it overnight.

:)

Ricardo, good call on that video. It does show an amazingly different sound (although much of that is playing style, I'm sure). Damn, I love Manolo Sanlucar. Is he quite short or is Paco kind of tall?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 21:14:47
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

If it is a flamenco negra, it will probably have quite a few cigarette burn marks on the varnish, and be beat to h--l above and below the strings near the bridge. It will probably show signs of being left out overnight and not in its case, and perhaps even one of those circle-shaped marks you get when you leave a beer on it overnigh


And therefore sound better.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 21:18:55
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2006 22:35:04
 
aloysius

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to Guest) 
According to flamenco historian Norberto Torres, Manuel Cano is said to have been the first player to ask a luthier to make negra guitars, probably in the early 60s. I believe he had very different reasons for wanting such a guitar to Paco - Cano wanted to make flamenco into a more refined and classical art. His philosophy was influenced by his friend Andres Segovia. As a result of this, his flamenco sounds way too "payo" for my own taste - however some consider him an important guitarist.

The impression I get is that Paco wanted a negra for an increased range of tone and timbre. There may have been other reasons - he certainly wasn't aiming for a more "classical" sound IMO.

- Aloysius

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 2:50:12
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to aloysius) 
Get Rito y Geografia. Look at the date the program was recorded, and observe the number of fine players, Gitano and Payo, that were using negras. Melchor de Marchena had a nice one. Did not appear to be a "cutting edge" idea even then. They seem very comfortable with rosewood flamenco guitars. I can't believe Paco was the "first". But still he is on the cover of "Fantasia Flamenca" with one, 1969. The CD I have that has all these artists is dated 1968:

Someone told me Escudero used a Herman Hauser with a tap plate!

Who cares anyway. Blancas will always be more flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 3:32:18
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 3:38:28
 
Ricardo

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to Guest) 
Sorry I meant who cares if Escudero used a Hauser. I mean if he did it long ago, does that constitute being a "flamenco negra"? If so, then the idea of using a rosewood classical guitar for flamenco could possibly pre date any flamenco videos, or records, or even photos. So "who cares" is refering to what does it matter who or when it was started, they were certainly in use since before 1970.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 7:08:40
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
In my opinion, anything with dark back and sides used to play flamenco is a Negra. All the rest is personal taste

Negras have been made for flamenco for MANY years.

The main difference is the neckangle, meaning that the strings should be close to the soundboard. Later you can discuss whether a negra should be thinner or not, have another bracing system.

When I build a negra I make it slimmer, with another bracing system, a thinner fingerboard, a lighter bridge, and a lower pitch in taptone. This compared to a classical guitar.

Negras are often said to sound like classical guitars. what should be said is that they have the same sound of rosewood, because both use (mostly) rosewood. The rest is very different. Different attack and sustain

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 7:29:21
 
Ricardo

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

In my opinion, anything with dark back and sides used to play flamenco is a Negra. All the rest is personal taste


Yep. And after reading your personal way of making, I remembered that (maybe it is my imagination?), but flamenco negras vs classical guitars are often lighter weight overall. I sometimes forget until I pick up someone's classical guitar and am a little taken off guard by how much heavier it is compaired to what I am used to. Again, could be just the negras I personally like.

Ricardo

PS. I remember reading in Jose Ramirez III book the short chapter on flamenco guitars. he said he had his grandfather's "Tablao" model guitar, which he said was popular for pro flamencos to use in dance accomp. gigs. The guitar he had from 1918 was made with maple back and sides, not cypress. But he said rosewood guitars were not popular like light wood of cypress, because flamencos thought playing on "black" guitars was bad luck. But at least we know there were flamenco guitars not made with cypress back then.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 7:36:57
 
gerundino63

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From: The Netherlands

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I also think there is a lot of difference between the guitars( if I see correct) because Sanlucar playes with a cedar top and Paco with a spruce top.

Peter

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 11:19:14
 
TANúñez

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From: TEXAS

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I suspect that Manolo Sanlucar used a Ramirez 1A classical guitar, and lowered the action and put a golpeador on it. Sounds and works fine as flamenco negra. I personally prefer the sound of a Conde negra, but that is my taste. Compare the sounds of these two guitars:


Amalia Ramirez told me a while back that Manolo's guitar is in fact their 1a Tradicional model fitted with a flamenco bridge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 12:08:21
 
Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
Man, I'm getting all excited reading this guitar geek stuff. I love guitars!

I have a sweet Tezanos Perez which is my main squeeze, negra. I was foolish enough to let a big-handed friend play it recently and he put some dents underneath the tapplate with some out-of-control golpes!

I play for gigs, my Cordoba Gipsy Kings model. Thin bodied. Very powerful trebles and of course always plugged in. Ricardo is to blame for this occurrence.

And I met my parents this August and had them bring the guitar I had in high school... a cedar topped classical by someone called Matsuoka. Surprisingly nice guitar, with that rich, bassy, somewhat undisciplined Spanish sound. I have a great variety.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 14:35:18
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to GailP) 
quote:

but flamenco negras vs classical guitars are often lighter weight overall.


In General yes, but some classicals are quite light as well, especially made on the Torres/Hauser pattern or Romanillos.
Some classical guitars can be very heavy. Imagine one made with Macassar Ebony. It´s like a concrete guitar.

Quote Ricardo "flamencos thought playing on "black" guitars was bad luck"

Watch out Ricardo, maybe the boogeyman will come after you.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 16:43:50
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Negra vs. Classical? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Watch out Ricardo, maybe the boogeyman will come after you....


I don't believe in that stuff. And I am always "knocking on wood".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2006 20:43:38
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