Justice, UK style

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Justice, UK style

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Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

Justice, UK style

The drunk driver who killed my friend, Guy last year, just got 4 years - he'll be out in two. In Virginia and NC, it's a capital offence, I believe; here it can be up to 15 years.

Did he get off lightly because Guy was the first person he had killed?

A mi Guy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 19:12:51

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Escribano)

My condolences, Simon. My fiance is a lawyer, so I see how the legal system really works. It's not about justice, of course. Its main purpose is to preserve the status quo. A lot of things about it don't make sense.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 19:46:10

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Escribano)

All countries have different sentencing tariffs. The US has the highest Prison population in the world, a staggering 2.1 million people in Jail, 12% of the total federal prison population are incarcerated for marijuana possesion which would be regarded as a minor offence in the UK. The US loves locking up its citizens. One Oakland Prison chief said once, that soon everyone will either be working for a Jail, or in Jail, and they are having to release murderers and rapists to make way for drugs offenders Having said that, I would say the four year sentence does sound lenient, and there is a lot of criticism at the moment over Judges and the lottery of sentencing in the UK that occurs from region to region. The sentence however could be increased when the case goes to appeal, as all cases do automatically.
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 19:56:27

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Simon,
I feel for you man. The loss of someone you love seems so final.
Sorrow turns to anger and anger to retribution, but bear in mind that the guy who drove the car in that state is merely an idiot, not malicious.
I think the incident will probably remain with him for life.
Judicial sentences are all about passing a message on to society in general.
Give drunk drivers 20 years and there will still be idiots on the road.
Just watch over this Christmas and New Year period.

No matter how you try to drive the message home, there will always be the idiot who says "Don't worry, I'm fine! In fact I drive better after a few beers!"

Very sad, Simon and I say again, I very much feel for you.

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 20:06:17

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Ron.M)

Thanks Ron, I am not vindictive and understand that the law is not retribution on behalf of friends and family; but if he walks in 2 years, that is neither punishment nor deterrent for killing someone when you know you have been drinking all day!

He pleaded not guilty, blamed his apprentice, said his drinks were spiked and that he was driving on the wrong side of the road because one of his tyres was 2lbs down on pressure! He hit another car first and seriously injured the driver.

He is clearly an idiot and did not set out to kill Guy, but he would have gone to prison for 10 years just for carrying an unloaded handgun, let alone using it.

How many people would honestly lament if the minimum was 5 years? That might deter and it would certainly punish.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 21:14:30

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Billyboy)

quote:

The sentence however could be increased when the case goes to appeal, as all cases do automatically

Only if the CPS appeal and I hope so. But thanks for the support folks. You can drive as safe and as sober as you want, these holidays, but just pray the other driver misses you and hits a tree instead.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 21:17:03

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Escribano)

When I was in Cordoba in the early 70's I read in the local newspaper of two villains who broke into a local Electrical shop and stole some radio/cassettes recorders.
They both got 14 years!
Franco didn't mess around!

I, myself was put in jail in Madrid, in the Puerto del Sol Comiseria (for 8 hours) for the crime of not having my passport on me when requested by a belligerent cop.

But you could walk the streets safely at 3 in the morning.

Unless you were an Anti Fascista...
Then you might just quietly "disappear".

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 21:50:45

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Escribano)

My fiance's brother, Jay, was a prosecutor here in Arizona for several years. Working in an area near a popular lake, he prosecuted God knows how many DUIs. Jay, like most prosecutors, was very intent on putting people away. There is a mentality among prosecutors that everyone charged with a crime should be put away, for as long as possible. Not knowing the law is not a defense. Sometimes, not committing the crime is no defense. He told us about certain cases where he would go ahead and prosecute although he knew that no crime was committed. His conviction rate was over 90%. This is how it works around here, people run for office boasting of being "tough on crime." Mercy is just not part of their ethos. Now my fiance used to be a public defender for a time. They burned her out though. There was a case where her client was accused of a upper-end misdemeanor that he didn't commit. The prosecution had no case. So, they threatened to charge him with a felony if he didn't plead to the misdemeanor. This means that if they managed to get a guilty verdict (very easy--most jurors believe that if you are accused, you are guilty), he would be in jail for many years--for NOT committing a misdemeanor. If he was not found guilty, being charged with a felony would be part of his permanent record, and would cut him out of public service jobs. Makes you sick to your stomach, doesn't it? An innoccent, young man, sacrificed to a prosecutor's soulless ambition.

Now her brother, Jay, is a public defender, not because he wants to help people but becuase he wanted to move here to Phoenix. He landed in the DUI unit. As a former prosecutor, he knows the system in and out and has already gotten a couple of acquittals--for guilty people! He's more interested in winning than in justice, as are 90% of lawyers.

As someone pointed out, marijuana possession can get you in a load of trouble here in the US. Given its effects, it seems to be punished disproportionately when compared to alcohol. But people still smoke. Tough laws can make an impact on DUIs, but they still happen. I wonder if the person who killed Guy was rich. People with money get much lighter sentences than poor, ethnic people.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 22:09:16

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Ron.M)

Oscar Wilde had it right Simon, when he said, "The law is an ass!"

All participants of the legal trade should be made to spend five years on a council estate as part of their training, then they might know what life on the street is really like. A guy who never wears a suit always turns up in court in one. If that isn't deception, what is?
It's almost as bad as the one crime the law doesn't punish: provocation, the root cause of so many crimes where the provoker walks and the provoked gets punished.

There are no words to compensate for the death of dear ones but, for what it's worth,
my commiserations.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 22:21:24

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to bailoro2000)

quote:

All participants of the legal trade should be made to spend five years on a council estate as part of their training, then they might know what life on the street is really like

Thanks Jim, and I did. I also got on the the wrong end of a Kalashnikov in Africa by a dictator's regime. I was OK, but my driver got beaten up just to teach his friends a lesson. I suspect Guy's killer plead guilty to a lesser offence and the CPS saved some money. When he checks out of prison he will get more of my money immediately because he can't find work as an ex-offender. I, meantime, would have to wait about 8 months to get social security, if I lost my job.

As I said, there is a storm coming, and we romantic liberals are leaving the door wide open for Lord knows what.

Enough, bless you all and sweet dreams.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 22:57:55

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Escribano)

Ron said,

quote:

When I was in Cordoba in the early 70's I read in the local newspaper of two villains who broke into a local Electrical shop and stole some radio/cassettes recorders.
They both got 14 years! Franco didn't mess around!

Ron,
Those days are long gone. Today in Spain you see people getting 14 year sentences for murder. Every time you read about someone being arrested it's always noted that the person is a 'habitual deliquent', meaning that they've been arrested countless times. There was a recent article in a Spanish magazine written by a Brit who had spent time in various prisons in the UK and in Spain. It was kind of a travel guide for prisons.

He said the prisons in Spain were just wonderful places compared to those in the UK. He specifically pointed out that if you're going to commit a crime in Spain, do it in Catalunya, because if you're caught the prisons there are the best!

Unfortunately, because of this leniency towards criminals, I've heard some older people on several occasions make the comment that they wished Franco was still around. We certainly don't need that, but that's what happens when the pendulum swings too far in the other direction.

The times, they are a changing'.
Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2003 23:12:34

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Phil)

Someone in the UK yesterday got five years for killing someone while driving talking on his mobile phone, so the tariff seems to be consistent for similar offences, but like a lot of crimes and punishments in the UK, are seen as too lenient by the public, as someone pointed out Judges or people who appoint Judges in the US are voted in by the public and not politicians like in the UK, and so reflect the wishes of the people, the US would seem more democratic, but as was also pointed out in a previous post, this can get out of control.
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2003 10:17:19

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Escribano)

Just a reminder that there is something even more unfair than a 2-year sentence for killing someone while under the influence.

On September 26th American flamenco dancer, Agujetas’ ex-partner, Tibu, who had been living in Jerez for about 30 years, lost her life on the cold dark highway when she was on her way to Sevilla for religious services that evening. Her killer was a hit-and-run driver who probably doesn’t even know what he or she did. Tibu was still alive when admitted to the hospital, meaning a few minutes earlier might have made the difference.

Estela ‘Zata’

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2003 22:05:30

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to zata)

Yep, I have the feeling that this guy would have done a runner as well if both his legs hadn't been mashed. Spineless creeps. My sympathies.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2003 22:10:08

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Justice, UK style (in reply to Escribano)

I'm very sorry about your loss Simon.

It's not fair and that is not justice. Your friend will not be returning in two to four years so why should this man get out in that time? This individual is lucky this didn't happen in Texas!

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 18 2003 14:57:40