Appreciating real work and tallent

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Niklas

Posts: 96
Joined: Aug. 27 2005
From: Finland (Living in Dublin)

Appreciating real work and tallent

I was at a part a few days ago with just some friends from all around gathering to have a good time. Anyway, there was one fellow who I had never met brought a guitar with him. I naturally was interested to see the guy playing. Well, after a while the guy picks up the guitar (steel string) and strums a few chords. The guitar is completely out of tune. No problem, he starts tuning it. Well, he tries to tune it... The guitar is completely out of tune when he starts playing. Ok so he starts playing some Finnish pop song and he's singing along. Guitar nothing close to tuned and he's not a fantastic singer either...

But what happens? Everybody turns their head to look at this guy (who actually was a realy nice guy in the end) and starts listening. The untuned guitar realy fustrates me and I find it hard to listen to the whole show, being a bit of a perfectionst. But everyone else could not take their eyes off this guy. He's just playing Dminor, C etc and trying to sing in tune. He finnishes the song and i'm not exactly expecting the crowd to go wild, but instead everybody goes "Wow!". I look in amazement as people start complimenting the guy "Damn you can play!", "Wow, you mean you have only been playing for 2 years?". Well he continues to play during the evening and people (girls especially

) are loving the guy.

Well all this made me acctually a little mad, here i've been working my *** off for the last 2½ years to get my arpeggios to sound half decent and some guy who has figured out 3 chords gets a standing ovation with a untuned guitar and a less than decent singing voice. Well I guess that the average person without much musical knowledge and ability will simply be fooled by something like this. Looking at some comments on some videos on youtube makes me think, why is it that people don't apreciate real skill? Not saying that anyone should apreciate MY skill since I don't have much of it

but what i'm saying is that people who work like mad to become a good guitarist or pianist or anything realy are too often forgotten. Turn on a mtv and you will see what i mean. For example this certain young woman who's father happens to own a certain massive hotel chain and who just released her first album. This person can't sing, her voice has been digitally tuned or what ever for the cd, she has not written a single song and has not worked a day in her life. And yet she is famous and rich. Unfair eh?

For some reason people don't just appreciate real work and tallent, and it annoyes the hell out of me.

Thanks for reading. I just needed to get that out of my system

Feel free to comment

Niklas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2006 17:54:22

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

i tell ya.. the best players in the world are doing studio jobs, sitting in a symphony
or TEACH. Most of the monster players seem to dig the less comersial genres for some reason

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2006 20:51:17

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Someone should psycho-analyse "what your taste in music says about you". They could write a great book with a chapter for each genre of music, and sub-chapters for the various sub-genres. I'd buy that for a dollar!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2006 21:15:40

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Niklas,

I am in a similar situation - just in a bit of the opposite side of it: everybody here tells me what an exceptional player I am when I know inside that I suck (my playing is worse than maybe a half of uploads here on this forum and really far from perfect). And what really surprises me: these people - they don't usually listen to Finnish pop songs - they are aficianados and listen to the best flamenco gutarists and singers in the world.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 24 2006 22:57:42

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Niklas,
it's very easy to assuage your frustration: learn 3 easy songs to sing and play that everyone likes. You will be the most popular person at any party that also contains a guitar. Then, instead of this phenomenon angering you, you can benefit from it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 0:37:09

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

people hear the song first. The technique of guitar goes over their head..

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 5:26:22

Niklas

Posts: 96
Joined: Aug. 27 2005
From: Finland (Living in Dublin)

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Well singing is not realy my thing.

And anyway, I dont play the guitar to make other people like or appreciate me. I play it because I love it. It just sometimes annoyes me to see people not get respected for all the work they do...

Niklas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 5:33:36

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Niklas

It just sometimes annoyes me to see people not get respected for all the work they do...

Aren't there many jobs that are underrespected?

What about the charwomen or the guys who take up our trash? They do a really tough job, but what they most of the time get from people are dishonouring looks.

Perhaps we are the charwoman of guitarplaying

that have to look after some "clean" songs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 9:44:54

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

I think its more a matter of who you play for...

If you only play for your own amusement, then its perhaps not surprising that the general public don't appreciate your work.

Generally speaking the public will prefer something that is entertaining but played badly to something which is boring but played well.

I think it was Malcolm Maclaren that said: "Its better to be an interesting loser than a boring winner".

As for the definitions of "interesting" and "boring": they are obviously relative.

But we all know the fickle mentality and short attention span of the great unwashed!

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 11:51:26

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to JBASHORUN)

JBASHORUN great post, i agree with you.

truth is noone cares about technique only other guitarists, the only thing people care about is the music, and your personality do they like you , can they relate to you, have you got their attention.

if all you have done is practiced guitar and havent been out of the house and have no personality dont expect that it will magically appear on stage.

I have meet many many brilliant guitarists with the personality of a capo and for some it even works and for some it dosent.

but i think theres a huge difference between a great guitarist and a great entertainer, and beeing one dosent necesarely assure the other.

...I dont even know what i am talking about anymore

.. oh yeah great guitarists not getting respect...yeah it sucks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 12:21:24

Niklas

Posts: 96
Joined: Aug. 27 2005
From: Finland (Living in Dublin)

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

I think its more a matter of who you play for...

If you only play for your own amusement, then its perhaps not surprising that the general public don't appreciate your work.

Generally speaking the public will prefer something that is entertaining but played badly to something which is boring but played well.

I think it was Malcolm Maclaren that said: "Its better to be an interesting loser than a boring winner".

As for the definitions of "interesting" and "boring": they are obviously relative.

But we all know the fickle mentality and short attention span of the great unwashed!

quote from: Jb

I like what you are saying. I'm gonna go and practise now...

Niklas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 15:26:59

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

It's better to be an interesting loser!? What the heck kind of philosophy is that. I don't agree at all... That's like saying it's better to be a good guitarist than a happy guitarist. Hello!? I think that is a pretty twisted set of priorities.

The best guitarist I know has been divorced three times, doesn't talk to his kids, lives in a trailer, and half the time I run into him he's nice the other half he about tears my head off. I wouldn't trade his guitar skills for his life--but he's sure interesting. And definitely a loser.

Look, I remember playing Bach and people yawning, and then someone grabbing the guitar and playing a 3 chord song and singing badly, and then getting all the praise. This is a lesson learned. By all means play the Bach at home and for recitals, but play the cheesy Poison song when the chicks are around. Just because they don't have any musical knowledge doesn't mean they're idiots, by the way.

I think it was Mark, one of our pros here, who said when he started playing bulerias at gigs, his clients had less fun and so did he.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 16:20:40

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Miguel, Malcolm Maclaren was the guy who brought "The Sex Pistols" to the world. I'm not sure whether to look upon him favourably for that. But you have to admire his logic. The Sex Pistols were FAR FROM the most talented band in the world. In fact, they were pretty bad IMHO... Just a couple of guitar chords and some shouty vocals! But they became a cultural phenomenon, and one of the most famous British bands ever. I'd agree that popularity isn't everything to a musician. But I think it was you who said that in some terms a "professional musician" is one who is popular enough to live off of his work. And we all know that what is "cool" will ultimately sell more than what is not, in some markets.

I don't propose that we all give up practising and play the same 2 chords and sing out of tune. But "dumbing down" or perhaps even "cooling up" might be a useful technique for an "entertainer".

Cheers,

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 18:59:46

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

If you can't sing and play the three chord tune as Miguel advised, learn malaguenas. And Granada, and some other general public friendly music. I play with a conga player who can get an ovation out of any audience. He has developed a few techniques which always bring a strong reaction. It's like the guy has a gun in his pocket and can pull it out whenever he wants and slay the audience. This is powerful stuff to have for any musician, and it will make a difference in anyone's success performing music. Few non professional players have these "weapons".

For flamenco guitarists, what I've seen work for others and on occasion, myself, has been the following:
1. blazing picado ala PdL-this has never worked for me because I don't have it

2. Continuous ras
3. Alzapua
4. Familiar music
5. fast showy stuff and tricks -use with discretion or risk totally losing any artistic merit...............

So, if you are faced with an audience of non flamenco people, and you do malaguena with some hot picado and thunderous ras at the end and you don't kick butt, you need more practise, or maybe a louder PA

At the end of the day you have to decide what you want out of your playing-to make yourself happy, to learn something new, to communicate with others, to make money, etc. Then you need to do the things that will help you achieve those goals.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 25 2006 22:37:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

I respect people who have the guts to play out in front of others and share what they know, even if it is simple or unpolished. Especially in parties, in formal. Lots of people can sit in the back with their arms folded and say "he sucks". But how about going and tuning the guys guitar and singing with him, or back up vocal. Then do something different, your own thing. Be a part of it. If it is so easy I mean. Flamenco is different, but the idea of singing and strumming a few chords is related. The player who can keep the party going, regardless of technique or ability to tune, is the life of the party. Get a room full of classical style soloists and see what kind of party happens.

But of course there are some who go overboard and don't know when to quit, or worse, start charging for what they think is "good" music. But it is easy to ignore those folks, and they usually become too self absorbed to perform in formally anyway. In terms of flamenco, the informal "juerga" is real important for learning. Too many new comers want to perform what little they know on stage somewhere, but are shy in the juerga. Should be the opposite.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 10:07:11

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

For flamenco guitarists, what I've seen work for others and on occasion, myself, has been the following:
1. blazing picado ala PdL-this has never worked for me because I don't have it
2. Continuous ras
3. Alzapua
4. Familiar music
5. fast showy stuff and tricks -use with discretion or risk totally losing any artistic merit...............

Yeah, these would probably make the audience go "Wow, look at that guy!" But its almost like an over-exaggeration of these techniques is needed just to impress some audiences. And if you played them more subtly in an everyday context, they wouldn't be so impressed.

The thing about Flamenco is that the rhythm structures themselves are so complex, that it immediately excludes outsiders from fully understanding the songs. Just the other day, I put on a PDL CD at the dinner table... my father (who has a habit of tapping along to the rhythm of virtually every CD I play) tried to tap along to the beat. But he just couldn't do it, because he wasn't familiar with the rhythm pattern. Now my father's a pretty intelligent guy, and very musically literate, with diverse tastes. But if even he can't understand it without guidance, what hope does some poor chav from Croydon have?

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 10:08:06

PacoPaella

Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 7 2004

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Its a mistake to learn flamenco with the purpose of impressing people. Its also a style that will make you quite lonely at party jamming. I remember what brought me to beginning to learn guitar playing: i sat together with a few friends i ran a business with, all of them 68'er folk people. They would just grab some of the guitars standing around and jam with 3 or 4 of them. I remember i was hypnotized (even though from todays perspective, the playing was less than perfect) by the magic of the improvised harmonies, how it all worked together without them ever practising together. I always keep thinking i need a handful of popular pieces for these occasions; i mean..come on...you cannot play flamenco stuff at a normal party! Actually there are always a couple of people who want to and can sing decently, but not neccessarily play along...it would be so easy. Where is that bob dylan songbook again?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 14:26:26

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

I know that feeling very well Niklas!!! My answer to this annoyance was to learn some 'flamenco lite' to play at parties. I play some colombianas, sevillanas, and the piece that all non aficiandos love is Juan Martin's 'Rumba Nostalgica' Women love it!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 14:51:08

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to el ted)

quote:

'Rumba Nostalgica' Women love it

anyone got the tab for that ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 14:56:15

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Nice one Flo!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 15:17:32

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

errhh.... yes, I tabbed it myself from the record.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 15:58:37

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to el ted)

well the rest of us like the women to

wanna share it ?

can u play it with just 1 guitar ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 16:02:43

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

I arranged it to suit one guitar, but I suspect a Juan Martin transcription may incur the displeasure of a lot of people here!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 16:10:31

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to el ted)

ohh good point i havent tought of that. lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 17:03:14

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas) 1 votes

Women like Juan Martins music?? Did he ever compose own things?? So maybe not possible...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 17:03:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Doitsujin)

hey il play anything women like !!

OMG Doitsujin, u have no idea what u started LOL u better run and hide.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 17:06:12

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

I have meet many many brilliant guitarists with the personality of a capo and for some it even works and for some it dosent.

Sorry but i have to make this joke: Is it the "normal" dunlop one or the more complex handmade only-flamencos-use-this, extravagant cejilla?

@topic: I completely disagree with being a "party guitarrist". If some people wanna sing, its ok to shred some Bob Dylan chords. Thats just a functional relation to the party. They wanna sing, but cant play, so you serve the purpose of a jukebox...that is no problem for me. But i wont play the role of an entertainer with a kind of (!guitar-)music (Bob Dylan is a perfect example for a guitar music i really dislike) I simply dont like. All or nothing. If people dont wanna hear flamenco its ok, but not a reason for me to fake the clown. There is also a stereo you can turn on...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 18:23:25

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to XXX)

a dunlop.

speaking of capos i just broke my 5th one last week, had to go to town to replace it today, man they $15 bucs !!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2006 19:04:52

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Appreciating real work and tallent (in reply to Niklas)

Why worry? It happens all the time.

People have this thing for continuous rasgs as well.

If you can do it, you're the King of Flamenco to someone who doesn't know his/her flamenco.

I know you've been working your @$$ off with the nylon guitar, so have many of us, and the recognition from a non-flamenco/non-classical audience tends to be very poor. So what?

Let them think what they want. People just want to be entertained the way THEY want to be. Sing and play a familiar song and you're the greatest.

Statements like 'classical guitar or flamenco guitar is simple' and 'the strings are easier to fret' used to piss me off, but not anymore. The fact is that they can't do it well. The same goes for the statement that 'classical guitar is easier than flamenco'. Maybe some of you might think so but I assure you that the difficulties are hidden within the music.