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JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

How old is "too old"? 
Something Ron said about his age recently made me think...

How old is "too old" in relation to learning, and excelling, at playing the guitar?

From what I've heard, most of the guys who are really, really good at playing (whether its Flamenco or any other genre) started when they were extremely young.

PDL. how old was he? Younger than 10? Hendrix was 12. Andres Segovia was already giving professional recitals at the age of 14!

So IMHO, if you're gonna be great, its best to start early. But what about those of us that didn't?

Some people claim that the brain is less receptive to learning new processes after a certain age, and consequently, this might hinder the development of something like guitar technique.

I also heard that most people's brains have already established certain patterns by the end of their teenage years, and deviating from those can be very difficult. therefore, its best to form our desired habits and traits during the developmental period of our lives if we want them to persist throughout the rest of it.

So... is there such a thing as "too late" when it comes to learning- and really mastering- the guitar?

Any opinions welcome!

James
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 13:19:12
 
Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
I am just beginning and I am 41(can it really be true?). I really believe I will be able to progress to where I can at least play enjoyable songs. I am pretty sure I will never get close to the level of those you mention but I will always strive to get as close as possible.

The age thing(physiologically) may play an important part, but the best thing about starting out that young is that you really don't have many distractions at that age. You have lots of time to play without worrying about losing your house, supporting your own kids, keeping the wife happy etc. Yeah, there are lots of stresses that seem big at the time but I remember always sitting around with buddies saying "what do you want to do?" "I don't know, what do you want to do?" Then we'd waste hours doing nothing productive. I wish I'd had a Flamenco guitar and some good learning aids back then.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 14:35:57
 
nickeyg

 

Posts: 56
Joined: Jun. 16 2005
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Wes Montgomery started playin guitar much later in life from what I understand and he is arguably the best jazz guitarist to have ever lived AND he plays with his thumb exclusively. I think people are capable of amazing things but I think the type and amount of practice are really the most important things. Then when you're not playing you should be thinking about it all the time, Nick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 14:41:08
 
DoctorX2k2

 

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
In sports physiology... the best time to develop the motor units is between 6 and 12. They tend to have better coordination and achieve greater speed. Is guitar similar? I guess so.

Your cerebellum can still learn new motor patterns until you get limited by age though. You can still learn a lot between 20 and 40, but your ability to retain the information is lower than when you're 12. The gap must be closed with more intensive training (more repetition) on the guitar. It really depends on you and how fit you are. Someone very unfit will have a greater morbidity at younger age, which fasten the aging process.

It's also very different from one person to another. The multiple-intelligence theory has a musical intelligence category... I guess it always helps. I've always been a fast learner in things I do, especially in sports technique. I think it's related to my ease to immitate movements.

Anyways, it's never too late to learn something you love. Just practice and practice and reach your max, only then you can know.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 15:27:49
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Just learn to use your analytical mind, which should be more developed now than that of a 6 year old. I believe you can achieve a high level of playing if you can put in the quality practice and manage to ignore all those who will tell you to give up...

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 15:39:54

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
How about, forget all this type of info, and just do it.

This is part of why children learn so well, they're not bogged down
with info regarding what they supposedly CAN or CANT accomplish.
We tend to tell children, "believe in yourself, you can do anything!"
By the time we're 20 something, we're getting limitations galore spewed
at us daily. "no way, you'll never do that" "be more realistic"

So forget about all that crap. "you need 10,000 hours of so n so and
you'll be great" "you cant learn such n such after X age"
There are too many examples that defy these conclusions.


Its very simple.

"Believe" If you believe in something
with every fiber of your being, its real.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 16:35:06
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to ToddK) 
I couldnt agree with you more Todk

perfectly worded too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 17:03:16
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Todd. you da man.. you da man.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 18:08:00
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to duende) 
The thing with me is mainly memory.
I can practise a falseta for a week, leave it... and two weeks later I can't even remember the fingering or anything...
Maybe that's because it's only a hobby and I don't "have" to retain it...
It's very disappointing though, for if somebody had to ask me to play something.....I don't know anything!
Apart from a few chords.
(Which I don't mind actually... )

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 20:50:16
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

I can practise a falseta for a week, leave it... and two weeks later I can't even remember the fingering or anything


i dont think thats age thats normal happens to everyone

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 20:57:08

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

The thing with me is mainly memory.
I can practise a falseta for a week, leave it... and two weeks later I can't even remember the fingering or anything...
Maybe that's because it's only a hobby and I don't "have" to retain it...
It's very disappointing though, for if somebody had to ask me to play something.....I don't know anything!


Strangely enough, I have the same problem as Ron. Which is quite alarming since I'm only 26 years old. I attribute this mainly due to lack of mental discipline. When I was in full-time education (ie. primary/secondary/high school) I was used to remembering things, and I had much more psychological disipline. Simply out of necessity. Many things I did without thinking back then, I would struggle to do now. I think lack of necessity has made me mentally lazy.

The general concensus in this thread seems to be that age may make things less easy, but if you have mental disipline and perseverance, then you can still acchieve your objectives as competently as anyone else.

Jb
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 21:06:48
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
In fact, I've been thinking recently about developing "lazy" Flamenco...
I'm really not joking here..
Developing some simple falsetas that just fall under your fingers, whether your tired, excited, drunk etc.
Just something that's reliable and you can recall..without being totally in the mood and totally warmed up.

(I sometimes think this is what P. Peña does... )

Whether it's any good or not...well that's another story..

What to the bustards want for free at parties anyway?...

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 21:20:54
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to Ron.M) 
acctualy thats not a bad idea, i got a some falsetas that i can do even hen i am pissed (I think ).


tonight i broke my index nail 5 minutes before the gig and it was gonna be the night i peform this new fandangos de huelva intro that i made up proprely.

it was full of picado

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 21:25:53

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

In fact, I've been thinking recently about developing "lazy" Flamenco...
I'm really not joking here..
Developing some simple falsetas that just fall under your fingers, whether your tired, excited, drunk etc.
Just something that's reliable and you can recall..


Me, I have a "Lazy Solea". when I'm too lazy/tired/excited/drunk (delete as applicable) to practice properly I play the same Solea, because it doesn't require much thought. It was actually the first falsetta I learned. I also repeat the Fandangos De Huelva chorus over and over again. Although I can imagine the audience's faces if Paco Pena did that!

Jb
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 21:33:34
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
lol


when i was starting out all i could play was some solea and a silencio for alegria, but this guys wanted to hire me and domenic for some spanish theme dinner something to do with the olimpics sidney 2000.

it was one of those $1000 a plate dinners for the rich and important.

hehe me and domenic streched a silencio for 35 minutes :-)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 21:43:04
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Bash,
Forgive me for being rather cynical here..
But I reckon if you've paid £20+ a ticket and don't really understand what you're watching anyway, you'll tend to tell your girlfriend that you've both witnessed a unique experience.

That's how it all works, from Manitas de Plata to Tomatito!

That's how the commercial side of it works IMO.

It's not a fraud or anything..

That's how you make a living as a musician IMO.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 21:43:56

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

I reckon if you've paid £20+ a ticket and don't really understand what you're watching anyway, you'll tend to tell your girlfriend that you've both witnessed a unique experience.

That's how it all works, from Manitas de Plata to Tomatito!


Ron mate, If I, Manitas De Plata, Tomatito, or even PDL held a concert, and played the same Fandangos De Huelva chorus over and over again for the entire 2 hours... well, I think some people might walk out, some might ask for their money back afterwards, and some might sit through the whole thing and shout "Ole, Maestro!!!" at the end!

There was probably a time (not so long ago) that I would have been one of the folks applauding at the end, but I'd like to think things have changed since then...

Jb
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2006 22:06:57
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Of course learning at an older age requires a certain amount of 'just do it' and belief as ToddK mentions. In fact the mere decision to start at an older age requires a bit of an 'F--- you' to age and limitations.

On the other hand, I think that for the mechanics of technique the kind information that DoctorX2k2 brings up is valuable. Obviously there will be obstacles (lets not call them limitations), but understanding how the body and brain learn and why they becomes resistant to learning can help in designing practice sessions to compensate for this.

In fact, that is the biggest advantage of starting something when you are older. You have more general knowledge and more self-awareness to apply to the task at hand.

A child practices exercises without knowing why, so some of the value is lost. If we know the why we can perform the exercises more purposefuly. Does that completely compensate for the fact that neural pathways and muscle memory are harder to create as you get older? Probably not, but you should still suck every drop of value out of your practice.

At least this is my plan at 33.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2006 0:21:33
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
I have thought about this a lot since I am old yet ambitious. I think there's no doubt that there are some sort of physiological advantages to starting very young. Certain mental and physical adaptations probably can't occur when you start late. The number of dominant musicians that started late, at least in the public eye, is very small, if not 0.

On the other hand, the issue of time and opportunity cost probably account for most of this.

Who except children can afford to play 10 hours a day, without having to worry about paying the bills? I think if you could do that, you could probably get as good as you would need to...

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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2006 0:57:41
 
c

Posts: 320
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: manitoba, canada

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
Ok
hang on here
theres nothing wrong with getting old
evvvery booody does it
the best thing is...that after youve done the same thing over and over
you finally get good enough at it ...that its fun
now thats real Flamenco
can any one argue that?

c
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2006 2:48:03
 
Gecko

Posts: 218
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: New Mexico

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

The thing with me is mainly memory.
I can practise a falseta for a week, leave it... and two weeks later I can't even remember the fingering or anything...


Me too Ron. Heck, I often don't remember where I put my guitar, glasses, drink or park my car at Wal-Mart.

Ah....just a minute. What is it we were discussing?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2006 11:40:32
 
bernd

 

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Generally I agree with Todd. My oldest student was 67 years old when she started and I always get students begining in the the age between start of 30 to the mid of 40. But it´s a difference whether you want to learn song accompanyment, classical or flamenco guitar. In higher ages physical influences limit technical skills. Kids doesn´t have to keep such a responsibility as adults and can learn longer a day than adults. As I see retired persons have a lot time to learn, too. So as Todd says: If you want to start with something, just do it.

Saludos
Bernd

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 21 2006 13:50:33
 
loop

 

Posts: 43
Joined: Sep. 21 2005
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
for me is not only age thing. my problem is money. if i go out find something to do, i will have no time to practice(at least not enough time).my mind can't focus on two more things, if i am practising, i don't want go out find a job, if i am working for money, i have no feeling to playing guitar. i am nearly 2 years no income, but 2 years for flamenco is not enough. what can i do?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2006 16:21:05
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to loop) 
I'm one of those people who started at 10 and had the good fortune to live near a great teacher, Carlos Ramos, who was a student of Ramon Montoya and played at El Bodegon in D.C. for many years. So I had all the advantages one could reasonably ask for. I'm 57 now, and went through several hiatuses (military service, career, etc) that interrupted my development in different ways, but I am still learning, still getting better.

I believe the greatest impediment to my development as a guitarist has been the natural discouragement that happens when I hit a plateau and can't seem to get some technique down and feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. At that point, it's easy to think, "This is as good as I'm going to get." But that's not true. I don't think my limitations have been age related. Quite the opposite. I now have the maturity to figure out solutions.

For example, I had always felt like a lightning-fast picado was one measure of a mature flamenco guitarist, but it wasn't until recently that I climbed to that plateau. You might think that if it takes that long, then you won't have the time if you didn't start early, but I can now see that it wasn't determination and time that did it for me. It was discovering a "trick" within myself that opened that door. Having a teacher who understood how to teach these tricks would have sped the process.

My opinion? There are some 20-year-olds who are too old to learn. and some 60 year olds who are still growing, and it is the stimulation of learning new stuff and the maturity to know what to do with it that makes the difference, not the years. Flamenco is full of techniques -- more so than classical. Each new technique reinforces all the others. Even if your picado isn't coming along the way you would like, learning other techniques will strengthen it through cross-fertilization.

Incidentally, I teach, and I find that my older beginners improve much more rapidly than my younger beginners.

Anyway, that's my 57-year-old take on how old is too old.

Tony A.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2006 23:02:27

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Hi Tony,

My father's teacher was Carlos Ramos.
Maybe you knew him. Tom Kreuzburg.


I spent many nights at El Bodegon watching him play.
I was just a young kid, but i remember alot.
Carlos was a fantastic guitarist, and a great guy too.

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 3 2006 23:33:51
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: How old is "too old"? (in reply to JBASHORUN) 
Hi Tony sounds interesting.
Concerning picado. What trick do you mean ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 4 2006 6:44:00
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