The other "position playing"

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

The other "position playing"

When you watch a great player, one of the most impressive things about them is that usually it looks quite effortless. Sure, they may grunt and grimace (this is flamenco, after all), but the actual playing of the guitar seems to cost them little effort, strength, or brainpower. Their struggle is to contain this great emotion welling up within them, causing them to contort their faces, clench their hands like talons, scream a blood-curding cry. Wait, wait. I was talkinga bout guitarists, and then I went off onto a tangent and started on singers. Let's get back to guitarists.

Position playing is maybe the biggest secret to this effortless playing, I think. This is when you fit what you are going to play into certain "locations" on the guitar. Each "location" has a bunch of permutations, scales, chords, idiomatic tendencies. When these are mastered, that positions is yours to do what you will with it. Most of us start with the 1st position, you know, open C, G, A, etc. We learn how to get around 1st position pretty well. Once in awhile we'll venture out to the fifth, maybe even the nether regions of the seventh or twelfth, or (shiver) ninth...whatever is in the ninth position, I don't know. Well, master guitarists get these other "locations" down just like we get the 1st position down. And just like most of us can figure out "Dust In the Wind" in first position, once we get these other locations down, we can start playing LOTS of arpeggios for bulerias!

But I wanted to talk about the "other position playing." This is an idea that just came to me today. I was struggling with a d chord in the second position. Fourth finger on the fifth string, fifth fret, third finger on the fourth string, fourth fret, second finger on the second string, third fret, second fret barre. A scary, hard chord for me. The current piece I'm learning uses it a lot, for strums, arpeggios, and tremolos. In trying to get this chord down, I found that I was exerting a lot of pressure. No matter what I did, I couldn't play the chord without ye olde Death Grippe.

Something occured to me... a little paradigm shift, I guess. And that was, it doesn't really matter how hard you push or hit the strings, it's more where they go (and secondarily, how fast they do it). For example, if you want to play a loud pulgar run on the E string, you want that string to go down deep towards the soundboard. If you pulled it horizontal to the soundboard, you'd get nothing, if you push it down, you get a big sound. So the thought occurred that more than force, it is place--location. If you want to play a loud note, you need to get the string close to the soundboard.

But we were talking about the left hand. I reasoned that what was important is where the string was, not how hard I held it. You want to hold the string so that it catches on the fret cleanly--that's all. Sure, if you're playing real hard, you'll need to hold it down a little more, but first thing's first.

This way of thinking helped me get that second position D chord going. It's also very liberating for normal barre chords. It's not about gripping the neck like it's your boss at work in a satisfying revenge dream. It's about using your left hand to position the strings correctly. Mentally, at least, it sure shifts the emphasis, no? If you are buzzing then look at your hand and see how you're "out of position" and what you can do to get there. If you think this way,you're more likely to find an efficient solution, less likely to go in search of the "burns."

I think this can be applied to any kind of fretting. Even scale passages are often played too forcefully, with too much tension. Tension drains strength, saps speed, makes you tired, and makes playing much less enjoyable.

I hope this helps someone!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2003 20:13:49

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel said,

quote:

When you watch a great player, one of the most impressive things about them is that usually it looks quite effortless.

Ain't that the truth? I was going to post some comments about this very subject after watching the Encuentro videos that I have. All of the pros have that one thing in common, but I think the appearence of effortlessness is the result of years of several hours per day of practice. When you were practicing 6 hours per day in Sevilla, didn't you reach a point were certain techiniques that you previously found difficult suddenly became easy to play? That barred D chord that you mentioned, which is really a C in the first postition moved up the fretboard, used to give me a real problem. It still does if I bar all 6 strings. I usually can get by with just barring the 1st 5 strings. Anyway, to the point, I've been practicing a lot more recently and I'm finding that I don't need to us as much pressure as I used to. Could it be that when you build up more strength it only seems like you're exerting less pressure? Or maybe you're exerting the same pressure as always, but have inadvertantly become adept at doing it without creating tension in you arm and other parts of your body. Sorry, I'm starting to ramble, but you make some good points. I guess the bottom line is the most obvious one, the more you practice the easier it gets.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2003 21:01:12

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Phil,
the other thing in common that great musicians have, and I didn't mention that, was that they all play 6 hours a day! This is true!

I often practice 6 hours a day but I'm sure no great musician!

But there are "secrets" too, there are methods and ways and knowledge. You wouldn't have to practice 6 hours a day if someone showed you how to play and how to practice. There's a lot you have to figure out yourself but much less if someone shows you how to do it. One of my beliefs is that sharing this knowledge, whether it be in sensations or paradigms, can open doors for those who have not yet been there. Or maybe they have been there, but they forgot it, and they can't get back.

It's not all about strength, no way. You have to have strength and stretch, but 6 hours of aimless practicing is not needed for that. With controlled discipline you can reach your playing goals much more quickly. If you think about how a lot of practice is so unfocused, imagine how focus and direction could help. Last I checked, Jerzy doesn't pratice 6 hours a day and I hear he plays pretty well. Ron does too, and I think he only plays once a week!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2003 21:27:49

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Phil, for example, look at that D chord in the second position. The only barred notes that need to ring are on the 6th, 3rd, and 1st strings. If you use the D (fifth string, fifth fret) as the root, omitting the 6th string, than you only have to barre the 3rd through the 1st strings. That is much easier... and has little to do with strength! :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2003 21:32:49

Melchor

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 1 2003
From: Jeré

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel I just wonder how can somebody spend 6 hours a day playing. Some days I feel like playing all day but for sure the next day the tip of fingers are very sore and my fingers are realy stiff. I just play for fun so if I thought I had to play again 6 hours then I wouldn´t enjoy it. Should I play even when I don´t feel like it in order to improve? By the way do you need reassurance in order to keep improving? I do, it is very important for me, specially when you see others much better than you.

Tu mas fiel seguidor " El Pequeño Saltamontes"

_____________________________

Carpe Diem y no dejes para mañana lo que puedas hacer hoy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2003 1:25:36

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Melchor, that's pretty hard to answer. Some people just want to play all day. Other people hate to practice. For me, I have this kind of burning desire to get better, which forces me back to the guitar all the time! It's like an itch that I can't keep away from. One thing, is when I started doing scales and other technical exercises, I saw my abilities really improving. And when you see results, that is very encouraging.

I go through cycles, about three where I'm happy with my progress and one, really tough week where I feel I can't play at all. Right now I'm in the second phase! :(

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2003 4:03:04

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2003 12:57:19

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Melchor)

Hi Melchior.
If I do not like to play, and I play anyway, I tell to myself:"ok, i do not like to play today, I practice only the new stuff, to get it into my brain.
Have an hour later, I like mostly to play again!
( I am sure it had to do something with addiction! lol)

Greetings, Peter.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2003 16:52:38

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2003 17:50:46

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I've no ambition to be a pro or an "all rounder"or anything, so I just like to play around with the guitar when the notion takes me.
I find that a lot more enjoyable.
I do listen a lot though.
I usually play a Flamenco tape or CD when I'm working if I can.
Sometimes I put on something I haven't heard for ages and maybe even play it every day and sometimes a particular falseta or rhythm will stick in my head.
Then I look forward to the weekend so I can work it out on the guitar!
I never practise scales or exercises or anything.
My main practise is listening.
I've found out that unless you "hear" something right, you'll never play it right, no matter how many hours you spend on it.

I really just like playing around with falsetas and rhythm and experimenting with chords.
In the past, forcing myself to practise when I wasn't in the mood, eventually sickened me from the guitar, and I ended up giving it up altogether.
So I enjoy the way I do it now.
But that's just for me, and is not a recommedation for anybody else.
You've got to do whatever suits you.

My two!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2003 20:11:22

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

You guys all make good points ,

Miguel said " there is some things that with time you will work out for yourself " that is so so true,

I remember when i tghout power is the most important think with flamenco , i used to go into my rasqueados like the strings where my enemy or something LOL

I used to do picados so hard that i could play in a club without using a mic

My motto was " I dont play good , but i play loud " HEHE

it took a long time for me to find out how to push into the strings in the rasqueado like a opening fan, took even longer finding the eaxct part of the finger ( and the way it should be angled ) when playing picados.
I think that some things can be learned and some just cant be tought, its like a individual journey for everyone.

When pple talk about power and strength they are refering to mental power and strengt,
all the actions that make for a greate technique are allready in your body now , is just a matter of exercising your brain to be able to call up on them at exactly the precise moment.

Sometimes when practicing a scale i would like to learn a new scale i think of my brain as a taperecorder : If i start on it slow even and clear and analyise each note and the right fingering , that is exactly what my brain (taperecorder) will record, if i used the right fingering than the brain is able to reproduce the scale using the right fingering therefore alowing you to reach higher speeds.

I dont wanna sound like i am overanalyising (lol i thope thats a word ) but "You cant cook a omlete if you dont know whats in it " (<---- I made that up today ) hihi

Acctualy this all post was made just for me to put my new saying down on papaer :)

and since i am feeling very deep today , heres another one i made up : " Dont piss in the wind or you gonna get wet " :)

GOOD NIGHT EVERYBODY ! <--goint out on a high note like George Constanza

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2003 2:56:04

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: The other "position playing... (in reply to Florian)

Florian;

I knew a guy whom I sometimes played guitar with at dance class who really "killed the guitar" with his power! He broke several strings during each class and would replace them and break some more. He finally injured his hands so bad he had to give up guitar. Be careful! Do not over due it.

I learned how to play loud and not injure my hands. There are little things that can help like holding the guitar body off of your body. Let the guitar touch your upper leg and your chest, at the upper and lower sides of the guitar. The back of the guitar should not touch your chest. Also hold the guitar at a slight angle with the nut slightly in front of the instrument and the bridge slightly behind. The above will minimize absorption of sound from your body. This works in flamenco, classical or the so called "American" positions.

Use extra hard tension strings – which are hard on the nails but I am lucky because they do not bother me.

We could have one to three guitarists in an auditorium of 2000-3000 people and fill the place with sound without any amplification. Today, I think a good sound system is a plus to save the guitarist from possible injury. However, I hate sound that is too loud. There is a happy balance.

I play several instruments and because of that noticed a few things. The piano music created by Chopin is my favorite for piano. Chopin’s hands were very “unique” and may have enabled him to play his own music better than anyone else.

You see guitarists with unique hands – take “El Morate” as an example! He developed his version of the triplet rasgueado due to a physical deformity. Peoples hands and fingers come in different shapes and sizes. You have to learn on your own what works best for you. This requires actively asking questions of yourself and others. Look at yourself playing guitar in front of a long mirror. Tape yourself and continue to ask yourself if the approach to the strings is best for you.

Be careful of teachers (especially) who insist that there is only one way to do anything – their way! When you are the master you will do your best!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2003 16:20:10