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Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Nice playing from both but I have to say 'yucK' to the whole piano and guitar thing. The two different temperaments never sound in tune to me. Is it just me?
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I love guitar, and I love piano sonatas from Mozart and the style of Bach's, but "flamenco piano" sucks till the end IMO. Time to look for a software "piano remover"!
Though I have seen much worse combinations of both, but it'll always sound "incompatible" to me.
Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Yeah. I don't know. I don't think it works. Piano is 'octave stretched' and guitar is more like "4th/5th stretched' tuning so the intervals on both never really match up.
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I found it enjoyable, myself.. Damn... You know Tomatito just can't help but be Flamenco... It oozes from his pores! Take any three notes at random from that piece and I could tell instantly that this guitarist is not Classical, Jazz, or Latin ...but Flamenco! His whole right hand shape and instinctive reactions just turn anything he thinks of into a Flamenco feel.
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I think it sounds very nice.
The only thing that bothers me is that jazz musicians always know exactly on what chord they are and which scale they can play on that ( you know octotonic, diminished etc.)
The flamenco player is always sort of playing along, using his most beautiful flamenco riffs. Not sounding right in place all the time.
Ah nevermind. That's why I decided to build a big wall between flamenco and all other music.
Posts: 15726
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to seanm)
I would have prefered a faster rhythmic version of this tune. The smultzy noodleing I find boring.
The tuning problem is caused by the capo on the guitar. It made him a little sharp, and noticeably so in the very high register above 12th fret on E and B strings. The tempermant problem is an issue with ALL western instruments used in ensemble, not just piano and guitar specifically. Weather and temperature/lighting cause slight problems too. Only modal music instruments are gonna be perfectly in tune, and then of course only to ONE scale per song. If tempered tuning starts to get on your nerves, take a listen to some Indian music for a change, perfect and sweetly tuned intervals sound amazing.
Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I'm not a big fan of this duo, but they are both awesome musicians. Anyway, I really liked the thing that Paco and Corea did. One particular tune is called "Yellow Nimbus". It's rather old but breathtaking. Paco played some damn fast scales there. I guess it's because Paco is so much closer to me then Tomatito's (I've never been a huge fan of his).
Also, did anyone hear Chano Dominguez's version of "Monasterio De Sal" from the album he did with Pardo? A cool piano version of the famous tune.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I think Ricardo's right that it is a bit slow and noodly. But I would rather listen to Tomatito's random thoughts that probably anyone's. Ron's right, he's so damn flamenco it's crazy. If you analyze is harmonically, the melody might be three notes but he throws about 6 ornaments on there. When I try it, it just sounds fake!
Sean, what if the guitar had a bit of juice on it, amplifcation and perhaps some compression? Do you think that would help?
Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Miguel,
I guess trying out the combo yourself and really listening would be the best answer (making sure the piano was really in tune of course). Maybe I'm over sensative tuning wise but, for instance, a major 3rd on a well tuned piano is not that same interval as a major 3rd on a well tuned guitar. They are off by a few cents. Now I've done harpsichord and guitar stuff and that is fine (and John Williams did a guitar and pipe organ as well ... weird eh). But as you recall a harpsichord is pre-tempered tuning (thus Bach's "well tempered clavier" compositions to celebrate the new fangled piano forte). Perhaps a synth that you could adjust the temperament on. Anyway, I guess its just a matter of personal taste. I mean jazz electric guitar and piano are very common. But then again as another example, I know that a violinist will play differently when playing with a piano than when playing in quartet of strings only. Similarly, when I'd accompany opera singers who where used to singing with piano, they'd always have to settle into the guitars intonation. It just seemed to throw them for a bit. So it's definitely different. Interesting :)
Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Miguel, I have an electric that drove me crazy. I wasn't reluctant to cut it since it was a sub 1000.00 guitar, so I had one of these nuts installed. It made a huge improvement, the guitar sounds in tune with fretted and open notes. I wonder if this would help you? I guess not if a capo is used. I don't know anything about their saddles. http://www.earvana.com/ Rod
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Tomatito doing the Esteban thing? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Thanks, Rod, I'll check it out! I don't think it's my guitar in particular, but just the nature of guitar tunings. But maybe it's worth a shot, and I can try it out on my second guitar.
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