You keep using that word...

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Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

You keep using that word...

Attack.

I get the meaning of attack to be aggressive, fast and sudden.

You guys keep using it for how you get a sound. But today I was watching a bunch of Sabicas videos and he seems so light and feathery on his strings. Nothing that makes the word 'attack' come to my mind. Perhaps it is too feeble to comprehend?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2006 8:55:40

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

Hmm, I don't agree. Sabicas was one of the most powerful guitarists of all time. Listen his alzapuas, rasgueados, picados. You have to know that he was raised in the no mic era (he had to learn to play loud). All those guitarists had strong attack. But yes, he could also play soft.

I think you can't really call yourself a flamenco guitarist if you have soft mellow, classical sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2006 9:38:02

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

To me, the flamenco guitar is kind of like the dance. How they do the taconeo, that's how the guitar should sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2006 14:28:33

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

OK, I hear a sharp powerful sound to Sabicas. Of course. But when I watch him play, he looks too gentle...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2006 18:21:02

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

I have been reading some the comments on attack, here, and in
the uploads, and i think we're all mixing terms, and its very confusing.

I think there is the most confusion regarding "Volume", vs " Attack".

I believe when Rons says, "A fast attack" i think he really means,
a "hard" and/or "aggresive sounding" attack.

The thing is, you dont have to claw and pound the guitar to get
a punchy aggresive attack.
I talked to Brune about Sabicas, and he's fairly certain he
was using very light string gauges, wich have alot of snap,
without needing to be muscled.

On top of that, you have to take some of the Sabicas videos with a grain of salt,
as much of the video you'll see on the net is "sync'd sound".

I believe Sabicas was very concious of the way he looked when he
played, and he most certainly took full advantage of the sync'd tapings
by being very light with the hands.

The Sabicas DVD i have, is all sync'd sound, with only one actuall live
recording. Its the one that has the Zapateado en Re vid that you've
seen in the uploads. That Zapateado and the Malaguena vids you
may have seen, are sync'd performances.

I really do think thats alot of the reason for the eerily light finger movement
vs. the aggresive sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2006 20:00:13

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

I guess majority of his videos were taken later in his career, when he wasn't really in top shape anymore.

I think a great example of a very powerfull picking would be that short clip of Paco playing "Mantilla De Feria" from "Francisco Sanchez" DVD. He was really tearing strings...

What is "sync'd sound"?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2006 0:11:56

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

I talked to Brune about Sabicas, and he's fairly certain he
was using very light string gauges, wich have alot of snap,
without needing to be muscled.

Yeah, I was wondering that when I was watching him play. His fretwork was incredibly gentle too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2006 1:00:31

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

Hmm, this is interesting, thanks for those insights Todd.

So, to get a flamenco sound, light string gauges will give that aggressive sound without extraordinary strength.

I wonder how much the volume would be degraded in this case.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2006 16:53:20

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

quote:

I wonder how much the volume would be degraded in this case.

It doesnt really matter. We now have things called microphones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2006 18:56:44

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

I believe when Rons says, "A fast attack" i think he really means,
a "hard" and/or "aggresive sounding" attack.

Todd,
What I was meaning is not a forceful attack, like a big heavy thumb or anything, but a bit like you guys were talking about in a picado thread...
Force= Mass X Acceleration
It's the acceleration part I was talking about.

I once saw Gerardo Nuñez doing an interview on Jerez TV just before he was due to go on and play and he was warming up as he spoke to the interviewer.
Just sitting there answering questions and giving opinions while playing scales and fragments of phrases and falsetas etc...and what struck me was the speed at which he played even a single note...the thumb just went through the string in a couple of milliseconds.

On Sabicas, I didn't know he did "sync" playback for video...that's interesting!

I've seen him play on UK TV and also "live" in Spain and he always looked incredibly relaxed and like he wasn't really doing very much..although all these notes would be flying out..

He didn't even look as if he was really trying or playing hard or anything!
In fact he seemed to have big, chubby fingers that hardly moved at all!

???

???

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2006 21:03:37

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

right...Ok......

I have a documentary from spanish television and I don't think there is one playback performance there. But you can never be sure about anything.

I also have doubts about light tension strings thing, since he was playing a lot closer to the hole. But then again he had an amazing guitar. Actually I've heard that Amigo uses very light tension strings....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2006 22:01:26

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to cneberg)

In those days did they even have light/medium/hard tension strings?
Or was it just "strings"? (ie non-catgut, but the new fandabadozy "nylon" ones?)

I dunno?

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2006 22:11:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

There are those that play very light, but get a mellow classical sound. There are those that play WAY too freakin hard, thinking that that is what makes guitar playing "flamenco" or "gypsy". BANG TWANG, KNOCK!!!!

When technique and taste come together, you find the right balance for the "attack". In the end it is a personal choice, and you use your ear while playing. I may play differently on a different guitar than the one I am used to. Your fingers find the right spot and apply the right pressure to make your ear happy. Takes a lot of work, you can't just say "fast attack" or "hard attack" or "don't play so hard". It is way more complex than just that and is not even worth analyzing.

I can usually tell when someone is playing over the hole though.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2006 5:03:21

ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006

RE: You keep using that word... (in reply to Exitao)

i play very hard, everything is just all attack and my pulgar is very aggressive. but since i'm just beginning, i'm hoping that with time and experience, my touch will become more subtle and nuanced and will have more flavors than just GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

getting a light sounding rasgueado right now is one of my biggest challenges.

doug

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2006 5:34:03