Sloppy versus Neat

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Sloppy versus Neat

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

Sloppy versus Neat

I've just been looking at some stuff from RNE's great collection..."Rito y Geografia del Toque."
The styles are so diverse that it would make Sean's question about rasgueado quite meaningless IMO...

It made me think that you've got great players like..
Paco de Lucia
Manolo Sanlucar
Tomatito... etc..
Who all play with visually tidy and with very economic hand movements.

And others like...

Sabicas
Vincente Amigo
Serranito...etc

Who don't play with such "tidy" hand movements but still get out some amazing stuff!

So can you imagine one group trying to teach the other technically in a so called "Masterclass"?

Jeez, most of the time Sabicas just plays "free note" thumb..
(Which is totally "wrong" of course...

)

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2006 20:32:17

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Sabicas
Vincente Amigo
Serranito...etc
Who don't play with such "tidy" hand movements but still get out some amazing stuff!

Yeah, its weird watching Vicente - looks kind of rubbery and all over the place compared to Paco, but still total 100% control.

Interesting about Sabicas, didn't realise that, still waiting for my DVD to arrive!

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2006 10:14:20

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

... it would make Sean's question about rasgueado quite meaningless

ouch.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2006 13:19:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to seanm)

I wasn't meaning it was a foolish question Sean...
It's just when you see so many ways of more or less achieving the same thing, it makes your mind boggle as to which is the "correct" way.

I guess the rule is "if it sounds good..it's right!"

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2006 13:32:03

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I guess the rule is "if it sounds good..it's right!"

That should be our forum motto. We've all said it so many times.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2006 13:45:10

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to Ron.M)

I was just kidding. I know what you mean. Many ways to achieve the same end. Through this though, I often look for the common element that may or may not be present in disparate styles. For instance, in this case the goal for me is a particular crisp, articulated sound that I hear a lot of players achieve. Assuming all have similar 'flamenco sounding' guitars and all arrive at the a similar sound ... what element of their technique is providing this. In fact, having so many players (as you have watched) doing various loose vs tight vs wild vs controlled techniques helps narrow down that one commonality that I could focus on because I think it is lacking in mine. It might be overall speed, position, angle, you know.

Like picado, you have vicente, PDL and nunez. All rather different in approach. But one common element imight be playing near the bridge. Another coordination. Another string crossing. They may share these techniques within their various approaches.

But more importantly, how is "Rito y Geografia del Toque" ? I have been considering it as a present to myself at some point. I can only imagine it is great. What about for someone like myself who only has limited spanish?

Sean

PS ... "if it sounds good ... it's right". Totally agree. But when "it sounds wrong ... it's wrong" and then what? That's when I looking so closely at what's going on. I don't have time to try N combinations or just make it look the same without knowing what I am shooting for.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2006 14:07:13

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to seanm)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seanm
Through this though, I often look for the common element that may or may not be present in disparate styles.

I think thats the key. Why does it sound good? Why do they all sound flamenco? Once you know the answers to those questions it makes the troubleshooting easier.

quote:

.......PS ... "if it sounds good ... it's right". Totally agree. But when "it sounds wrong ... it's wrong" and then what? That's when I looking so closely at what's going on. I don't have time to try N combinations or just make it look the same without knowing what I am shooting for.

I am not sure there's a quick way around the experimentation bit Sean, as you have to give different techniques time to see if they work for you before you discard them. I think this is one of the reasons flamenco takes so long to get competent at.

If you don't know what your are shooting for, then I cannot see how you can progress. Either you hear in your mind the sound you want to make and continually adapt your tech to make your sound closer and closer, or you have someone else providing the feedback and guiding you. With no clear goal you are never going to get there - because you don't know where 'there' is.

I do think that when you are stuck and cannot see improvement with a particular tech after some time, getting a second opinion can be invaluable. Obviously a teacher would be good for this feedback, but Ron's suggestion of a video seems like a good idea to me. Why not get yourself a cheapy webcam?

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2006 14:28:07

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to Ron.M)

Sean,
just practice it stacatto--you can't go wrong! :)

Ron,
maybe the _music_ is the common element here (secondarily, rhythm). The one thing these guys all have in common is a crystal clear conception of the music and the rhythm, and an unyielding desire to push toward that goal. How their body looks while they do it is strictly secondary in this case. I wonder how many amateurs or less-skilled players can say that their conception of the music is quite so clear.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2006 14:29:56

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: Sloppy versus Neat (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Sabicas
Vincente Amigo
Serranito...etc

Who don't play with such "tidy" hand movements but still get out some amazing stuff!

So can you imagine one group trying to teach the other technically in a so called "Masterclass"?

Jeez, most of the time Sabicas just plays "free note" thumb..
(Which is totally "wrong" of course... )

I agree with you about Amigo's "dancing" and Sabicas's thumb, but I think Serranito's right hand technique doesn't differ much from Sanlucar's or Paco's. I have all TVE - "Tesoros de la guitarra flamenca" documentaries, including Serranito's and I must disagree with you. He went over the top very often, but his hand position was/is very good.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2006 9:48:42