Cante question

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Cante question

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koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

Cante question

I have some cante questions.
I got interested in the singing and so I thought I might start with the tangos.
I listened to this old tango and put the melody of the different verses on paper together with the chords.
Then I listened to four other tangos and looked for similar melody's. But they where all different !
Except for one. You know the one that's in tientos too ( chords: Bb-A-Bb-A-A7-dm-dm-C-C7-F7-Bb-A)

So my questions are:
1. Are there standard melody's in the different palo's? I heard for example of alegria de cadiz, buleria de Jerez.
2. Are the singers mixing up those different melody's at random ?
3. Is it worthwile to learn those standard melody's ( +chords) by heart ?
4. Which palo's have only one standard melody. I know garrotin. petenera and soleares have. But are there more ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2006 21:10:27

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Cante question (in reply to koella)

quote:

So my questions are:
1. Are there standard melody's in the different palo's? I heard for example of alegria de cadiz, buleria de Jerez.
2. Are the singers mixing up those different melody's at random ?
3. Is it worthwile to learn those standard melody's ( +chords) by heart ?
4. Which palo's have only one standard melody. I know garrotin. petenera and soleares have. But are there more ?

K,
I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge. The people who could really give you a good answer are Estela or Sean O'Brien, both of whom post here occasionally. They are both very knowledgeable about the cante.

1. Not really. There are many styles within each palo. Each style may have an associated melody, but each singer may take liberties with these.
2. It used to be considered bad taste to mix styles, but I don't think that's the case anymore.
3. 'Standard' sounds too carved in stone. But there are some melodies that you hear more than others and certainly it would be good to know those.
4. The only one that comes to mind is Marianas, but there may be others like Garrotin. I never quite understood how Garrotin even came to be considered flamenco. I've always considered it to be the silliest palo. Also, I've never ever heard any Flamenco singer sing it live or on TV (except as a pop song, e.g. Las Grecas, Manolo Escobar). Regarding Solea: there are over 30 styles of Solea, so it most definitely does not have one standard melody. There is even a style of Solea sung and played in E major (As opposed to the typical E or A phrygian).

Hope this helps and I hope I didn't give any bad info. If I did I'm ready to stand corrected.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2006 21:52:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante question (in reply to koella)

1. Yes. You need to listen to MANY different singers singing the same palo in order to figure it out. It is MUCH easier to actually try to accomp different singers in person. I noticed the standards, only after having learned them on the job. Thing is you dont' know yet what is the standard and what is the embellishment, and how far things can be stretched. It could be you actually heard the SAME standard melody, but the embelishments are what threw you off. It helps to have a GOOD singer. I have played for some that don't really know it correctly, or know one style well and not another, but can "fake it" if the accomp. is good. A good singer can sing many styles, with NO accompanist or inspite of a bad accomp.

2. Mixing, yeah but it depends what you mean exactly. Lyricas can fit to any melody if you want. An "alegria" performance (cante or baile solo) can have a full letra of Mirabra, Romera, etc, but you won't find a singer sing half an alegrias, and half Mirabra, unless he does not know what he is doing really. (Which I have heard).

3. You can't really accompany well until you do. Some dancers know this better than some singers they hire. I have seen dancers "sing" the correct phrasing of a letra to a singer that was a bit shaky on it. And not a bad singer either. Like I said, some singers are better at certain styles, and that is OK. But it pays for EVERYONE to be familiar with the standards, especially the guitarist. But if the singer is good and clear, the guitarist can actually accompany new styles he had never heard before. That is how I learned. You have to make mistakes. You can't just listen to the records because you don't know what the important things are. But hearing the old records drives home the standards you recognize.

4. I can only guess so I would rather not say. And because different singers have a "personal" style (at least they used to), it can seem that there may be many "standards" for the same basic melody. Example, fandangos has SO many different styles for the same basic melody. Nino de gloria, Caracol, Porrina, Farina, all sound like a different song, but from the guitarist point of view, they are all the SAME song. You have to listen to the KING notes that give the guitarist the tonos (chord change). Eventually you hear the difference of phrasing and melody of Grainaina vs Fandangos for example, even though they have a similar harmonic structure. Without hearing accomp, you should be able to recognize the melody of any cante sung accapella.

Without knowing ALL cantes I can accompany most singers with some confidence, or with one single run through for more obscure songs. All though Sevillanas still make me sweat because of the way they can change tonality (I dont' like hitting ONE wrong chord). Point being, you just need the harmonic blue print and sense of compas to be able to "follow" a singer that is good. Even if it is a cante you are not familiar with.

Modern flamenco cante cds have lots of arranged songs, because no one wants to record the same old standards anymore. Don't try to learn about it from any modern records. There are some exceptions like Zambo. Once you start to hear it though, you will find traces of it in the modern recordings, tucked into the corner of some solea or bulerias somewhere.

For tangos you mentioned, listen to Montoya family. Lots of standards on that one.

I have lots to say about this stuff, it rarely comes up, but gotta go.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2006 16:32:13

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Cante question (in reply to koella)

Thank you Phil. Thank you Ricardo.

@Ricardo. With the mixing of melody's I meant: There are for example different tangos melody's.
I read that in the old days Gypsy's of different places came together and each group would sing it's own version of it. And that later on singers would mix up the melody's.
Like the first copla is from a Cadiz tango, the 2nd from a Cordoba tango and so on.
Is that right ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 24 2006 21:08:33

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Cante question (in reply to koella)

Koella,

I want to add a couple of things to my last post. I wasn't thinking so much in terms of accompanying when I answered. I mentioned 30 some styles of Solea and there are countless Fandango styles, but Ricardo is absolutely right when he says that from the guitarist's point of view there's not that much difference (at least for Soleares and Fandangos). I really like his concept of "king" notes. What really becomes tricky is when the singer does something like extending a line in Solea and throws the 'cambio' (the G7 - C on beats 7 - 10 in the 3rd and 4th verses) off from it's usual position. An ethnomusicologist, Carol Whitney, wrote an interesting article several years ago talking about this. She recorded in the field and had an example of the same singer singing the same Solea with the same guitarist on different nights doing what I just described. My point is that singers have a lot of leeway in their interpretations and it can really complicate things for a guitarist trying to learn to accompany.

Modern Tangos melodies can vary a lot, but nothing varies as much as Bulerias 'cuple' which can be any melody or song set to Bulerias compas. Fernanda and Bernarda, for example, often sang popular Spanish songs por Bulerias. Of course, if you know the song there's no problem. But imagine the poor guitarist accompanying them for the first time and he doesn't know the song.

I'm always impressed by guitarists who can accompany a singer that they have never accompanied before. A couple of weeks ago I saw Nano de Jerez. He was supposed to be accompanied by Eduardo Rebollar, who I'd never heard live before and I was exited to hear him play. Well, he couldn't make it and another guitarist subsituted. The guy did a terrific job, but when Nano sang the first Solea the guitarist played the fastest Solea I've ever heard. As a general rule Soleas are played quite slow in Jerez now-a-days. I don't think the guitarist was from Jerez. Nano kept looking over at the guy, but he didn't slow down a bit. After the break he sang another Solea and it was much slower. I'm sure he talked to the guitarist. This was a case where the singer was forced to go along with the guitarist, but I've seen many cases where very experienced accompanists were thrown off the singer doing something unexpected. But these guys recuperated so fast that the non-guitarists watching probably didn't even notice it.

Thanks asking the question, Koella, because I find this subject to be very interesting.

quote:

have lots to say about this stuff, it rarely comes up, but gotta go.

Ricardo, I would personally love to hear what you have to say about this stuff.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 28 2006 23:29:50

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Cante question (in reply to koella)

Very interesting Phil. Thanks.
I would also like to hear more on this subject.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 29 2006 16:32:15

Juan23

Posts: 2
Joined: May 5 2006

RE: Cante question (in reply to Phil)

quote:

Regarding Solea: there are over 30 styles of Solea, so it most definitely does not have one standard melody. There is even a style of Solea sung and played in E major (As opposed to the typical E or A phrygian).

A Solea played in A phrygian is a Solea por Bulerias. There is no Solea accompanied in E major. It was probably an Alegrias that you heard.

Juan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2006 7:29:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante question (in reply to Juan23)

quote:

A Solea played in A phrygian is a Solea por Bulerias. There is no Solea accompanied in E major. It was probably an Alegrias that you heard.

I have heard some old timers say there is no such thing as solea por buleria, just soleares por medio, and solearilla or something. For me when I play for a singer, I don't care the key I am in, you have to play the right chords and the right tempo. I feel like Solea por medio, and solea por bulerias are the same thing guitar wise. Dancers like Solea very SLOOOOOOW sometimes, and I personally find it difficult to play slow "por medio". So when playing solea arriba, even though the chords are the same or similar, everyone is clear when it is no longer solea it is Solea por bulerias, because of the rhythm. So for me, the main difference is in the rhythmic feel.

Perhaps the major key thing is the final of a lot of cantes. For example, "por dio tomasa por dio tomasa, vente conmigo ay no tenga guasa...." goes to parallel major mode like bulerias. Know what I mean? I just think of that kind of thing as the "bulerias" ending of Solea.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2006 8:20:30

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Cante question (in reply to Juan23)

quote:

A Solea played in A phrygian is a Solea por Bulerias.

For years I thought the same thing. Simply playing a Solea in 'A' does not make it a Solea por Bulerias or a Bulerias por Solea (they're the same thing). There are countless recorded examples of Soleares accompanied in 'A' aka 'por medio'. It's a matter of what the singer requires and of personal choice. Marote and Eduardo de la Malena accompanied Fernanda de Utrera in 'E' (por arriba) way up on the 7th or 8th fret, that's pretty uncomfortable for most guitarists. Paco del Gastor accompanies her 'por medio' on the 2nd or 3rd fret (since my guitar is never in tune I can't tell for sure

). It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that the Jerez guys really like to accompany 'por medio', especially Moraito. Fandangos is another palo where we're taught that it's done in 'E' and then find out after listening and observing that it's routinely played in 'A'.

quote:

There is no Solea that I know of accompanied in E major. It was probably an Alegrias that you heard.

6 or 7 years ago I heard El Gordo Agujetas sing. He said, "Voy a cantar por Solea" and then proceeded to sing accompanied in 'E' major. I couldn't figure out what was going on. Over the next couple of weeks I asked some people about this and they all said the same thing you said. Anyway, I forgot about it and a couple of years later somebody mentioned it on one of the forums and co-incidently around the same time I heard an example on the radio (Caminos del Cante) by El Viejo Agujetas. It's called a 'Solea de Carapiera" and El Viejo Agujetas is given the credit for keeping it alive. So the Agujetas clan are about the only ones who still sing it. I've been told that the Moneos and Zambos also sing it. Last year I heard Manuel Agujetas sing it. He went into it from a 'regular' Solea as a remate (I think that's the proper term), whereas El Gordo sang it start to finish in 'E' major. I think I have a short example of El Viejo Agujets that I downloaded from someplace. If anyone is interested, I'll upload it. I think the tricky part for the guitarist is to not make it sound like an Alegria.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2006 8:29:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante question (in reply to Phil)

quote:

If anyone is interested, I'll upload it. I think the tricky part for the guitarist is to not make it sound like an Alegria.

Por favor, would love to hear it. Yeah, "don't make it sound happy", but it sure can't be that sad sounding

In regards to Solea arriba vs por medio I know the perfect example. The flamenco movie has Fernanda accomp. by P. Gastor, por arriba (E). There is a CD version that goes with the movie, but a lot of it was re-recorded. The CD version has Fernanda singing the same letras again, but accomp. por medio (in A, but the same absolute key). You can clearly hear how the tonality affects or not the singing and overall performance.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2006 18:10:30

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Cante question (in reply to Ricardo)

I uploaded 2 short examples of Solea de Carapiera in the audio section. One is sung by El Viejo Agujetas and the other by his son, Manuel Agujetas. I think Rafael Alarcon who accompanies El Viejo did a better job than Curro de Jerez of NOT making it sound like an Alegria. I think in the 2 examples they both transitioned into it from a 'regular' Solea. However, it can be done as a stand alone Solea. It's definitely an unusual Solea.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2006 22:40:23